This last week’s Gospel Doctrine lesson was on the Plan of Salvation. It covered Alma 40 - 42, which is a great section for understanding the Plan of Salvation. But, for Latter-Day Saints it may settle some questions, and raise a few more. For example:
“Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.” (Alma 40:11)
The chapter goes on to explain more about the spirit world, all of which aligns nicely with most LDS people’s views. In my Sunday School class, I asked:
“If we are taken “home” (sounds like a returning) to be with God, is the spirit world the same place as the pre-existence (pre-earth life)?”
The class was adamant that they are not the same place, but offered no explanation of how we go home to God, but only that it is not the same place as the pre-existence.
Our teacher, always prepared, was ready with a commentary on the topic. But frankly, all of the arguments in the commentary fell flat in my opinion. The commentaries basically said that God is not in the spirit world, that the spirit world is really just a place where you prepare to see God, a concept that I reject.
I believe that our usual shallow views on the Plan of Salvation pose many unavoidable questions, just from Alma 40.
We are taught that God was in the pre-existence. But for many, they are still in the pre-existence, is God there? Or has He left there and went to the Spirit World?
Is the spirit world the same as Kolob? Has He left Kolob for the Spirit World?
Is our pre-existence home the same as Kolob? Is the pre-existence a celestial glory?
If we are fortunate enough to go to the celestial kingdom, will God be there, or will He still be in the Spirit world, or the pre-existence? When will He come to the celestial kingdom?
Where is the Spirit World?
“When you lay down this tabernacle, where are you going? Into the spiritual world…Where is the spirit world? It is right here. Do the good and evil spirits go together? Yes they do…. Do they go beyond the boundaries of the organized earth? No, they do not…. Can you see it with your natural eyes? No. Can you see spirits in this room? No. Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see, could you then see the spirits? Yes, as plainly as you now see bodies.” [Brigham Young, quoted by Widtsoe, pp. 376-77]
And in the resurrection, if we inherit the celestial kingdom, we are told we will reign forever on earth. But what about if we inherit the terrestrial, or telestial kingdom? Where will we reside?
I believe that all existence is stacked, one sphere, or dimension upon another. They all exist at the same time (relatively). I would also say at the same place, but dimension or glories divide space.
Of course the temple is the template of this whole thing of multiple glories or dimensions in creation.
I submit a couple of my prior writings towards the answers: HERE, HERE, and HERE.
11 comments:
I am so glad you explained that. I live with the misfortune of seeing them on occasion. My daughters do too. Its a horrible family illness, and no one in the church will ever understand. When I first really read that scripture I felt sick. I thought it must mean that all i see is all in my head and that I passed on some hallucination gene to my kids. If the church is true and the scriptures are true, than I'm in trouble. But you really explained it. They ARE here! And yes there are many dimensions. The ones I see are not bad. They're usually very decent people and not really trying to bother anyone. Some are afraid because of all the teachings they received in life about death and hell. My father in law explained a little about how it works after he died, before they sent him on a mission (I know, a mission in the spirit world! Crazy!) But as much as it all seemed real, I thought either its mental illness or Satan is really messin me up! Thank you so much for explaining that scripture!
Anon:
Thank you for the very interesting comment. I am interested in hearing more about what you have seen. If you are so inclined tell us more here, or email me.
You might also check out these couple links:
http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/remembering-the-pre-existence/
http://davidjlarsen.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/we-lived-in-heaven-sarah-hinze-on-pre-birth-experiences/
-David
Anon:
Thanks again for your comment.
Forgive my frankness, but, I don't know you, and you may be crazy. But putting that possibility aside, I wonder about such an ability to see thru dimensions from time to time, as some claim to do.
You called it "horrible family illness." Maybe it is just a genetic anomaly like albinoism, but I would tend to think it is more than that.
It seems to me that it would be a great gift. A gift to bear testimony of a life beyond. And some explanation of that life. This seems like a great gift.
And even if just a genetic anomaly,
it seems such a anomaly could be used to advance the kingdom. Your testimony of what you have seen would be valuable to me.
-David
No No No
"I believe that our usual shallow views on the Plan of Salvation pose many unavoidable questions, just from Alma 40."
So tell me How deep is it?
And to the other "Anon" I have meet many who entertain the Idea of of seeing Dark Spirits and have meet the ones who claim to Visit,
The solution is rather easy Repent !!!!
And see no glory in your Gift,
Seek Holiness, Seek the Kingdom of God,
Do not Be victim like !!!
Pick yourself Up and you will Uphold the Sword of Rightousness.
Now run and Fight the Fight.
Going Home?
Gods Law? Gods Divisions, The EVil with the Good?
Decending in the spirit world.
With the saints ? With the Human Devils?
One big House? Spirit Prison? Judgement Yes No?
What does "With" mean?
"Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise"
Touch me Not for I have not Ascended To My Father in Heaven. Can you die on the Moon ? Is there a Hell?
is Hell Deep in the Earth?
Also for those who see spirits and Rats maybe too much T V
I am a little dense I guess. I just realized why everyone has a hard time with God being in the spirit world. It’s because it is a “spirit” world, and The Father and The Son, both have physical bodies.
I think that in this case we put un-necessary restriction here. And I think my chapters on Dimensions and Resurrection, that I linked to, are even more relevant.
-David
What is Physical? And what is Spiritual? More refined? Matter?
Can Dimensions be cross linked and exclude other dimensions? Can there be Realms,Glorys and Kingdoms in the same dimensions? Can those more Evolved or Glorified enter and be present in all of thier past Dimensions at will? and are they co-present and co-existant in all of thier Previous Dimensions?
Are there Beings that can be cross dimensional with the ability to choose to reveil or with-hold thier presence to those who had not received the same level of glory?
"If we are taken “home” (sounds like a returning) to be with God, is the spirit world the same place as the pre-existence (pre-earth life)?”
The class was adamant that they are not the same place, but offered no explanation of how we go home to God, but only that it is not the same place as the pre-existence."
What is Physical? And what is Spiritual? More refined? Matter?
Can Dimensions be cross linked and exclude other dimensions? Can there be Realms,Glorys and Kingdoms in the same dimensions? Can those more Evolved or Glorified enter and be present in all of thier past Dimensions at will? and are they co-present and co-existant in all of thier Previous Dimensions?
Are there Beings that can be cross dimensional with the ability to choose to reveil or with-hold thier presence to those who had not received the same level of glory?
"If we are taken “home” (sounds like a returning) to be with God, is the spirit world the same place as the pre-existence (pre-earth life)?”
The class was adamant that they are not the same place, but offered no explanation of how we go home to God, but only that it is not the same place as the pre-existence."
Is God in the Church?
You might as well deny "Mormonism," and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned. What are you opposing it for? It is a principle that God has revealed for the salvation of the human family. He revealed it to Joseph the Prophet in this our dispensation; and that which he revealed he designs to have carried out by his people. (Journal of Discourses, Vol.5, p.204 - p.205, Heber C. Kimball, October 12, 1856)
" between two percent and five percent of our people were involved in it. It was a very limited practice; carefully safeguarded. In 1890, that practice was discontinued.it is behind us"
6,000 plus years since the Fall, who knows how long before the fall, Pre-existence was it in Gods Presence or just under His control? Walking and Talking side by side? Returning not just to where or who, but to what?
A garden? A School? Small family? Military units?
Masses in Motion? Why would it really Matter where that Place of returning really is, if matter energy and space are in constant Motion?
The Spirit World? A Place? A Time? A Place in Time?
A cycle? Pre-earth Life Where? When? With Who? How with Who? Are we "with" GOD in this Life? Doe we live as Families in this Life? Did we Before? Yes-No How?
Lonely Alone in a Big Pre-existence of pre-earth life college in the Sky?
War in heaven? Did "War" stop? Here or there?
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