In the pre-mortal world of spirits, the great Michael was chosen to come and represent all of us, and by our signing onto the plan, Michael represented each of us vicariously.
In Hebrew, Adam (אדם) means “man” and means “human.”<1> We are all Adams, following the path of the fall and redemption of our father Adam. In Hebrew the phrase “the man” is the word “the Adam” (חאדם). Michael’s spirit was breathed into a body on earth, and his earthly name was Adam. This was true with Adam with his mate Eve. They were introduced into a garden that represented a Terrestrial Glory.
Pursuant to the Covenant of Creation Adam and Eve were given their agency, “...in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency.” (Moses 7:32) God gave this agency specifically to Adam and Eve, and that gift extended to all humanity since they represented all men and women.
Agency is not the same as free choice. The concept of free choice implies a choice without repercussions. If a person meets a beggar on the street and is asked for charity the person may choose to give or not give, but if the possible donor has made a covenant to give to the poor, he is an agent of that covenant and can’t withhold charity without a violation of the covenant.
God deals with man, and builds a relationship with man, by covenants, one covenant upon another, till a full reconciliation is achieved. Adam and the rest of humanity were never given “free choice,” we were given agency, and the choice to choose to keep our covenants, or turn away from them.
We all entered into the Covenant of Creation, and thereby accepted Adam as our representatives before God in the garden. This was a family event, our father Adam and his children. Adam was given commandments that defined the limits of his agency. Adam and Eve received the two commandments, one that Adam and Eve remain together, and second, that they do not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
A part of true agency is choice. Within the garden humanity was given agency and the choice to keep the agency or turn away from it. Without the choice to keep our agency or not, the purposes of the Covenant of Creation can not be met. “And to bring about his eternal [Covenant of Creation] purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.” “Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself.
Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.” (2 Nephi 2:15 & 16)
In this life we have choice and agency, and we should understand each.
---------------------------
<1> Strongs Hebrew #120
33 comments:
"They were introduced into a garden that represented a Terrestrial Glory."
Please give source for Above "Terrestrial Glory"
"God deals with man, and builds a relationship with man, by covenants, one covenant upon another, till a full reconciliation is achieved"
When GOD establishes a relationship of TRUST and dependability is HE a Liar?
Was GOD's Commandment "not to partake of the tree" in the Garden of Eden given with the best of intentions or built on a false premises?
Was it GOD's wish that ADAM and EVE would disobey his word and obey the wishes of the Serpent?
We all entered into the Covenant of Creation, and thereby accepted Adam as our representatives before God in the garden.
GOD"s commandments are not in opposition to himself in His nature. What is the character of God?
Ps. 18: 30
30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Prov. 30: 5
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Hosea 4: 1
1 Hear the word of the Lord, ye children of Israel: for the Lord hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
Sooooo
Did GOD really give Adam and Eve commands that they could obey or are you implying that God is in
Opposition to himself, or that the Word of God is not trustworthy? Did God have hidden or ulterior motives in his words?
"Within the garden humanity was given agency and the choice to keep the agency or turn away from it."
What does "turn away from it" mean?
What would have happened if Adam and Eve just partook of "tree of life; the one being sweet"?
If a person meets a beggar on the street and is asked for charity the person may choose to give or not give, but if the possible donor has made a covenant to give to the poor, he is an agent of that covenant and can’t withhold charity without a violation of the covenant.
HMMMMMMMM
rather profound I like it!!!!!
David,
Can you explain what your definition of Agency is? I'm not sure I understand how it's used in the above post. Does it generally follow the 'freedom to choose' meaning, or is there something different in the way you are using it?
I am using "Agency" in a difference sense, I am using it in the scriptural usage. Agency means that a person has entered a covenant (pre-mortal covenant of creation, our agreement to come to earth), and is now an agent of that covenant. We have agency (bound by a covenant), and we also has choice.
David
Can you explain the idea of scriptural agency? I agree that it is not the same thing as free choice, freedom, etc., but how is it that agency, "means that a person has entered a covenant," or is "bound by a covenant"? I don't get the connection. I haven't ever heard of agency used in that way before. Also, the idea of being an agent of a covenant is new to me (and probably a lot of others as well). How do you come to that definition?
(By the way, the third Anonymous comment above was me. I accidentally submitted before I was ready.)
Matthew Andreasen
I will attempt to answer your question. Agency and choice are two different things and used differently in scripture. I think we can all agree on what choice is, so let’s discuss agency. I used to sell real estate for a living. Before I could act on anyones behalf as a real estate agent, I had to get a listing agreement (or a Buyers Listing). The listing agreement was in fact an agency agreement. It laid out the limits, covenant, conditions, and powers of that agreement. When I worked, I worked as an agent of that agreement. In addition to being an agent, I had choice to follow the terms of the covenant or to break the covenant. I had a fiduciary relationship, or in other words, I had a responsibility to act in certain ways when presented with certain situations.
Before we came to this earth we all lived in the pre-mortal world, and we agreed to terms of the gospel (Adam, Christ, repentance, etc.). We live our lives as agents of that pre-mortal covenant. We keep, restore, or break that covenant, it’s our choice.
AGENCY - Legal Definition: “2 a : a consensual fiduciary relationship in which one party acts on behalf of and under the control of another in dealing with third parties;”
David
Thanks. That explanation helps quite a bit. Your example with the real estate agent and the listing agreement helps me see how you tie agency into making a covenant.
The way I understand agency (when it's used in that sense) is that an agent represents another person, called the principal. The agency agreement would describe the terms and conditions of the agency relationship between the principal and the agent, but the agent would still act in behalf of a person, as can be seen in both your example and the dictionary's definition. I've never heard of a person being an agent of an agreement; that's what threw me.
This comment is for the first Anonymous comment. You seem to post a lot of the same type material on this site. I will attempt to answer every one of your questions.
“When GOD establishes a relationship of TRUST and dependability is HE a Liar?”
Did God foreknow all of His children that were to be born upon this earth or just Adam and Eve?
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? (Numbers 16:22).
So what kind of relationship of TRUST and dependability did GOD establish among ALL of His spirit children in pre-mortality?
For whom he [God] did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son… (Romans 8:29).
What is the image of His Son?
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:12 - 15)
How could all of God’s children, excepting Adam and Eve, have the opportunity to be conformed into the image of the Son, which is actually the image of the invisible God (to those mortals who will not be prepared of the Holy Ghost and the Savior), by being delivered from the power of darkness, redeemed through the blood of Christ, and receive forgiveness of sins unless God provided a way for them to enter into a fallen state?
In the pre-mortal realms, God established a relationship with us that if we trusted Him, He would be dependable in providing the most perfect way for us to become (be conformed) like Him by choosing to pass through fallen mortality and being allowed to choose to use the Atonement of Jesus Christ freely to experience the fulfillment of His previous promises.
How could Christ have even been born or carried out the Atonement if it weren’t for the Fall that allowed all of the rest of God’s children that wanted to become like God through His Son to be born?
Continued…
Michael
“Was GOD's Commandment ‘not to partake of the tree’ in the Garden of Eden given with the best of intentions or built on a false premises?”
“Was it GOD's wish that ADAM and EVE would disobey his word and obey the wishes of the Serpent?”
I think you clearly established that God does not work by deceit. However you attack this blog page as though the Fall is unique to so-called Mormon Doctrine. Either you believe the Bible and/or the influence of the Holy Ghost (if that is a practice you engage in) or you choose not to. Either you believe that God set this whole thing up according to His infinite love, wisdom, knowledge, and benevolence or you choose not to. Is it the so-called Mormon’s fault that you use the scriptures to oppress and not to fulfill God’s infinite purposes?
“We all entered into the Covenant of Creation, and thereby accepted Adam as our representatives before God in the garden.”
“GOD’s commandments are not in opposition to himself in His nature. What is the character of God?”
God invited you to be able to become like Him before you were born and this is the most perfect way He would be able to set it up in order to gain the greatest success with all of His children. The Fall of Adam and Eve did not surprise Him. Nor did He set them up to fall. “Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite”(Psalms 147:5). God knew from the beginning that they would make their own choices that would bring about the Fall. This was not contrary (or built upon false premises) to the plan that you originally agreed on. Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8) because we all knew then that the Fall would happen and we were OK with it. It was not God’s wish that Adam and Eve would obey the serpent. But He would have never allowed them to be the first man and woman if He knew they would not choose of their own free will to be swayed by him to transgress the law through being beguiled. But does that mean that God set them up to fail since He knew that they would sin? That would mean that God is a liar for letting anyone be born into this world that could not perfectly keep every commandment He ever gave, “[f]or all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Again, Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8), and “[f]or whom he [God] did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son…” (Romans 8:29).
Continued...
Michael 2
So how does all this work then? Perfectly, as only God can do. Firstly, God does not create anything imperfectly, so how could we trust in His dependability to conform us into His image through the Atonement of Jesus Christ without a guarantee that their would be a fall? “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” (Ezekiel 28:15). God’s foreknowledge and use of the Fall allowed for Him to foreordain Christ to be the Atoning Sacrifice so that His children “might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust” (2 Peter 1:4). Again, this allowed Him to promise us that sin was guaranteed to bring about the Fall, in preparation for the Atonement, without creating anything imperfectly. Things happened perfectly so that Satan could provide the necessary opposition after being cast down, and mankind could fall without having to enter into open opposition against God. Everything happened as gently as possible because “God is love” (1 John 4:16), and He fulfills all of His promises for the benefit of all His children. “Is any thing too hard for the LORD” (Genesis 18:14)?
To assume that anything that God allows to happen isn’t potential (respecting the free responses of His children) to accomplish His full purpose through Christ, is to believe that He is not all knowing, all powerful, all merciful or willing to allow His children every opportunity to become like Him.
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved” (John 3:17).
You might try using your scriptural knowledge to try to accomplish God and Christ’s purposes instead of persecuting their children. I’ll be praying for your success.
Michael
Lucifer is the Good God, according to the Mormon view IF you buy into the FALLING UP to Exaltation View, GOD's plan is straight and narrow. If you dont not Trust GOD's WORD as in DO or DO NOT you know not God.
When you follow the direction, promptings, whispers, and instructions of Lucifer and find that by experience that you are on the road to Exaltation and Salvation You are surely on the Path to Hell.
GOD is Not a Serpent with a forked tongue, nor is His WORD subtil, Double worded with Double intentions!!!!!!!
To Trust GOD you must live, be living and believe his WORD.
Perhaps one could follow Eve in thinking that wisdom is of the Serpent.
"desired to make one wise"
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any"
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Here comes the Mormon Doctrine that speaks with a Forked tongue
Moses 5:10 -11
Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
( almost a THANK YOU to Lucifer)
and in disregard to GOD's WORD!!!!!!!!!!
Had Adam and Eve just simply partaken of the Tree of Life.
To simple? Void of Mystery? No Serpent Wisdom required? No Towers to Build and Climb,Too easy?
1 Cor. 1: 22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,
2 Cor. 4: 4,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
"I told you, and ye believed not"
"ye believe not"
Time to Trust GOD and let go of putting you trust in Lucifers word.
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Ps. 78: 22, 32
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Trust in GOD not Lucifers words
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(tree of Life)
If you do not believe in Gods word You can not Trust God.
If you believe In Lucifer and that falling UP theory
If you feel like god is double intentioned, speaks with a forked tongue, and is double worded and that you need that Mystic gnowledge and gnostic tree fruit Partake.
Lucifer is the Good God, according to the Mormon view IF you buy into the FALLING UP to Exaltation View, GOD's plan is straight and narrow. If you dont not Trust GOD's WORD as in DO or DO NOT you know not God.
When you follow the direction, promptings, whispers, and instructions of Lucifer and find that by experience that you are on the road to Exaltation and Salvation You are surely on the Path to Hell.
GOD is Not a Serpent with a forked tongue, nor is His WORD subtil, Double worded with Double intentions!!!!!!!
To Trust GOD you must live, be living and believe his WORD.
Perhaps one could follow Eve in thinking that wisdom is of the Serpent.
"desired to make one wise"
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any"
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Here comes the Mormon Doctrine that speaks with a Forked tongue
Moses 5:10 -11
Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
( almost a THANK YOU to Lucifer)
and in disregard to GOD's WORD!!!!!!!!!!
Had Adam and Eve just simply partaken of the Tree of Life.
To simple? Void of Mystery? No Serpent Wisdom required? No Towers to Build and Climb,Too easy?
1 Cor. 1: 22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,
2 Cor. 4: 4,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
"I told you, and ye believed not"
"ye believe not"
Time to Trust GOD and let go of putting you trust in Lucifers word.
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Ps. 78: 22, 32
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Trust in GOD not Lucifers words
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(tree of Life)
If you do not believe in Gods word You can not Trust God.
If you believe In Lucifer and that falling UP theory
If you feel like god is double intentioned, speaks with a forked tongue, and is double worded and that you need that Mystic gnowledge and gnostic tree fruit Partake.
Lucifer is the Good God, according to the Mormon view IF you buy into the FALLING UP to Exaltation View, GOD's plan is straight and narrow. If you dont not Trust GOD's WORD as in DO or DO NOT you know not God.
When you follow the direction, promptings, whispers, and instructions of Lucifer and find that by experience that you are on the road to Exaltation and Salvation You are surely on the Path to Hell.
GOD is Not a Serpent with a forked tongue, nor is His WORD subtil, Double worded with Double intentions!!!!!!!
To Trust GOD you must live, be living and believe his WORD.
Perhaps one could follow Eve in thinking that wisdom is of the Serpent.
"desired to make one wise"
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any"
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Here comes the Mormon Doctrine that speaks with a Forked tongue
Moses 5:10 -11
Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
( almost a THANK YOU to Lucifer)
and in disregard to GOD's WORD!!!!!!!!!!
Had Adam and Eve just simply partaken of the Tree of Life.
To simple? Void of Mystery? No Serpent Wisdom required? No Towers to Build and Climb,Too easy?
1 Cor. 1: 22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,
2 Cor. 4: 4,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
"I told you, and ye believed not"
"ye believe not"
Time to Trust GOD and let go of putting you trust in Lucifers word.
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Ps. 78: 22, 32
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Trust in GOD not Lucifers words
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(tree of Life)
If you do not believe in Gods word You can not Trust God.
If you believe In Lucifer and that falling UP theory
If you feel like god is double intentioned, speaks with a forked tongue, and is double worded and that you need that Mystic gnowledge and gnostic tree fruit Partake.
Lucifer is the Good God, according to the Mormon view IF you buy into the FALLING UP to Exaltation View, GOD's plan is straight and narrow. If you dont not Trust GOD's WORD as in DO or DO NOT you know not God.
When you follow the direction, promptings, whispers, and instructions of Lucifer and find that by experience that you are on the road to Exaltation and Salvation You are surely on the Path to Hell.
GOD is Not a Serpent with a forked tongue, nor is His WORD subtil, Double worded with Double intentions!!!!!!!
To Trust GOD you must live, be living and believe his WORD.
Perhaps one could follow Eve in thinking that wisdom is of the Serpent.
"desired to make one wise"
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any"
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Here comes the Mormon Doctrine that speaks with a Forked tongue
Moses 5:10 -11
Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
( almost a THANK YOU to Lucifer)
and in disregard to GOD's WORD!!!!!!!!!!
Had Adam and Eve just simply partaken of the Tree of Life.
To simple? Void of Mystery? No Serpent Wisdom required? No Towers to Build and Climb,Too easy?
1 Cor. 1: 22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,
2 Cor. 4: 4,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
"I told you, and ye believed not"
"ye believe not"
Time to Trust GOD and let go of putting you trust in Lucifers word.
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Ps. 78: 22, 32
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Trust in GOD not Lucifers words
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(tree of Life)
If you do not believe in Gods word You can not Trust God.
If you believe In Lucifer and that falling UP theory
If you feel like god is double intentioned, speaks with a forked tongue, and is double worded and that you need that Mystic gnowledge and gnostic tree fruit.
Partake.
Lucifer is the Good God, according to the Mormon view IF you buy into the FALLING UP to Exaltation View, GOD's plan is straight and narrow. If you dont not Trust GOD's WORD as in DO or DO NOT you know not God.
When you follow the direction, promptings, whispers, and instructions of Lucifer and find that by experience that you are on the road to Exaltation and Salvation You are surely on the Path to Hell.
GOD is Not a Serpent with a forked tongue, nor is His WORD subtil, Double worded with Double intentions!!!!!!!
To Trust GOD you must live, be living and believe his WORD.
Perhaps one could follow Eve in thinking that wisdom is of the Serpent.
"desired to make one wise"
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any"
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it"
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Here comes the Mormon Doctrine that speaks with a Forked tongue
Moses 5:10 -11
Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
( almost a THANK YOU to Lucifer)
and in disregard to GOD's WORD!!!!!!!!!!
Had Adam and Eve just simply partaken of the Tree of Life.
To simple? Void of Mystery? No Serpent Wisdom required? No Towers to Build and Climb,Too easy?
1 Cor. 1: 22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,
2 Cor. 4: 4,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
"I told you, and ye believed not"
"ye believe not"
Time to Trust GOD and let go of putting you trust in Lucifers word.
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Ps. 78: 22, 32
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Trust in GOD not Lucifers words
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(tree of Life)
If you do not believe in Gods word You can not Trust God.
If you believe In Lucifer and that falling UP theory
If you feel like god is double intentioned, speaks with a forked tongue, and is double worded and that you need that Mystic gnowledge and gnostic tree fruit Partake.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Here comes the Mormon Doctrine that speaks with a Forked tongue
Moses 5:10 -11
Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
( almost a THANK YOU to Lucifer)
and in disregard to GOD's WORD!!!!!!!!!!
Had Adam and Eve just simply partaken of the Tree of Life.
To simple? Void of Mystery? No Serpent Wisdom required? No Towers to Build and Climb,Too easy?
1 Cor. 1: 22-24
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,
2 Cor. 4: 4,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
"I told you, and ye believed not"
"ye believe not"
Time to Trust GOD and let go of putting you trust in Lucifers word.
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Ps. 78: 22, 32
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Trust in GOD not Lucifers words
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.(tree of Life)
If you do not believe in Gods word You can not Trust God.
If you believe In Lucifer and that falling UP theory
If you feel like god is double intentioned, speaks with a forked tongue, and is double worded and that you need that Mystic gnowledge and gnostic tree fruit Partake.
Oppps I Did not mean to Over post
The GOOGLE blog rejected my Post and then after display them, maybe I fell (Down) but I will be forgiven
This is getting controversial, let’s see what happens next. And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will. OH WOW, THE MORMONS REALLY DO TEACH THAT ADAM AND EVE FELL DOWN AND THAT THEIR ONLY HOPE OF MOVING UPWARD WITH GOD IS THROUGH HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN WHO WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! AND LOOK GOD STILL RESPECTS THE CHOICES OF AS MANY AS WILL! And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. AHA! THAT SNEAKY ADAM AND EVE DIDN’T KNOW TO BE GRATEFUL FOR THEIR TRANSGRESSION UNTIL THEIR EYES WERE OPENED BY WHAT—THE HOLY GHOST, NOT THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. THEY ATE THE FRUIT YEARS BEFORE THIS ALL TOOK PLACE.
SO THE REAL QUESTION IS, “WHY WOULD GOD CAUSE ADAM AND EVE TO REJOICE BY MEANS OF THE HOLY GHOST AFTER TEACHING THEM ABOUT THE ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST?” I WONDER IF BEFORE THAT TIME, THEY EVER REALLY FELT LIKE THEY COULD BE FULLY REDEEMED! THANK GOD FOR HIS MERCY, HIS SON, AND THE INSIGHT ONLY THE HOLY GHOST CAN PROVIDE!
But wait a minute, all of this came from so-called Mormon scripture. There must be some deception somewhere right. We better check it against the authority of the bible.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:2 - 15)
ARE YOU SURE JAMES (THE LORD’S BROTHER) ISN’T PRAISING THE VERY THINGS THAT BROTHER ANONYMOUS IS CONDEMNING THE SO-CALLED MORMONS FOR?
3
Michael
(I really wanted to get into the discussion of how the fall of the first Adam and the condescension and Atonement of the second Adam (Christ) point to each other. This really shows how the Fall was not only necessary, but something to glean appreciation from especially in hindsight as did Adam and Eve under the direction of the Holy Ghost. Maybe next time.)
Seems like only my part 3 got posted. I will resend them in order. Please disregard previous post.
Michael
There's a glitch in the Matrix. I will try this one more time.
Michael
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:2 - 15)
GOD was not trying to Tempt Adam, GOD was not confused, GOD was not trying to restrict access to the TREE of LIFE, God was not trying to Rob humanity of SALVATION
The LORD spoke not with a forked tongue, He meant what he said and said what he Meant.
His WORD is Not Forked.
His Tongue is Not Forked.
His WORD "Thou shall NOT"
Lucifer Tempted Eve with a act of WILL in rebellion to GODs command. "Tho shall Not"
GODs foreknowledge does Not dismiss Sin.
Follow Lucifer, Obey Him, Disobey God,
This is the First stepping stone in Mormon Doctrine.
Is that what you are saying? Yes Yes Yes
You (Mormons) are calling GOD a confused Liar, by embracing the gnotion of GODs WORD being a Hinderance to Salvation!!!!!
The WORD of GOD is to Be Trusted.
The Mormon view is that God gave a Commandment
"Thou shall NOT"
GOD was Confused and did not Know the Straight and narrow way.
Subtil SERPENT SATAN Lucifer comes on the seen
What does he says
"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods.
Mormons KNOW (gnostic) that following Lucifer is the Road to Heaven
It was all too easy !!!!!!!!!!
Some might ask "what would become of Adam and Eve if they Partook of the Tree of Life (SALVATION)
and not Trusted in Lucifer"s word"?
James has the Answer
2 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Let go Let go of Embracing the Words of Lucifer as Truth.
Trust GOD, Trust GODs WORD, Believe GOD,
Paul was against Gnostics and Gnotions
a Hidden form of Luciferianism also Known as
Those that Love the god "Sophia"
like as in Philo(love) Sophia
The Hidden and Secret Gnowledge of god
or Lucifer
There was no restriction to eating the Fruit of the Tree of Life SALVATION (until the fall), salvation is a free gift and is free to all who partake.
Some choose to follow Lucifers path of denying the free GIFT, Thinking by their Gnostic Knowledge by knowing Secrets of TGAOTU that in Master Mason Fashion on can build a Tower to Heaven and Take the Throne of GOD by storm.
Gen. 11: 4-5
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven;
GOD takes away his FREE GIFT from those that Follow Lucifer. And make with the work of their hands a Tower to climb
Moses 5:
And the woman said: The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
No!! Not really following Lucifer and disobeying
GOD is My first step to Exaltation, That is why I said
"Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal Life< Guess following Lucifer was not so Bad after all God was confused any way He really did not know what he was saying Lucifer was Right and God was wrong.
During their captivity in Babylon, there were certain Jewish priests who had explored deeply into the Religion of the ancient Babylonians, which was Witchcraft. These Jews had developed the "Secret Mysteries" of the Babylonian Mystery Religion into a sophisticated form of occultism which they called the Cabala, and Cabalistic teachings are a part of modern Freemasonry today.
Jesus say This to all the Tower Builders the Luciferian
Master Masons from Babalyon
Out of evil comes good, however, and the confusion of tongues gave rise to 'the ancient practice of Masons conversing without the use of speech.'" -Arthur Edward Waite, A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: Their Rites, Literature and History, Volume I, Page 61, 62
There Goes LUCIFER and The Master Masons Again
John 10: 1, 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Paul Romans 5:
15 But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ
receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
THE FREE GIFT
The Tree of Life Partake
1st Cor 10:30 30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Michael Said-----
However you attack this blog page as though the Fall is unique to so-called Mormon Doctrine,
What is unique about the Fall is That Mormons believe That the Fall was UP not Down,,
Mormons Believe Disobeying GOD and following Lucifer was The First step UPTO esxaltation!!!
Here is the Uniqueness, That is the Luciferian Doctrine as Taught by Luciferians, Witches,Gnosticts Satanist,Lovers of SOPHIA, Mormons Etc..
are on the non-Christian side, Those of whom Paul was with most passion against.
AT LEAST KNOW THE DIFFERENCE
www.jefflindsay.com/adam.shtml#intro
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/
Luciferianism.htm
Mormon Challenge, know the difference and admit it!!!!!!!
Michael also Said-----
" Either you believe the Bible and/or the influence of the Holy Ghost (if that is a practice you engage in) or you choose not to."
Do not confuse the SPIRITS or The SPIRIT or the Nature of GOD.
The question
Is was It of the direction and influence of the Holy Ghost that Adam and Eve partook of the Fruit and disobeyed GOD or was it under the direction and influence of Lucifer when They obeyed Lucifer?????
Mormonism V/S Christianity
"Mormon Doctrine holds a different view of the role of Adam and of his fall than other Christian faiths."
www.mormonwiki.com/Fall_of_Adam
www.kevinbywater.com/weblog/?page_id=35
For some gnostics and early Christian sects, the serpent of Genesis was viewed not as the villiain of the book, but as the hero. It was he, after all, who brought divine wisdom to man. The god in Genesis had told Adam not to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, for if he did he “would surely die.” But Adam and Eve did eat the fruit, and they didn’t die. In other words, God was wrong and the serpent was right. The serpent told the truth, and God had lied. Certain Gnostics and Christians thought that this was surely the intended subtext of Genesis. Evidence that they may have been correct can be seen in what amounts to an Aramaic pun. In this now-dead language, used at the time of Christ, the words for “serpent” and “to instruct” are nearly identical. The serpent had instructed Eve to eat of the Tree of Life, and in following his advice, she gained wisdom. Viewed in this light, how could the serpent not be seen as the hero of Genesis?
Mormons Tend to be more Gnostic than Christian that is because the Brothern were FreeMasons yet not Free at all.
Anonymous,
I am saddened to see that you have no good news to live by and have no way of encouraging and uplifting others unto God through Jesus Christ and His gospel. I was really hoping to have something good to build upon with you unto union in Christ although there are obvious differences in our personal preferences.
Please forgive the blunt nature of this question, but I think it is one that you should seriously consider.
ARE YOU EVER GOING TO PROMOTE ANY POSITIVE METHODS OF IMPLEMENTING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO THE FULFILLING OF GOD’S PURPOSES OR ARE YOU SO ATE UP WITH DARKNESS AND VENOM THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE UNCEASINGLY TO PREY UPON HUMBLE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST AND CONTINUE TO SEEK TO DISCOURAGE THEM FROM EXERCISING FAITH IN THE REVELATIONS HE HAS GIVEN THEM BECAUSE OF HIS MERCY AND GRACE?
I was raised in the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, but as a teenager fell away completely from any contact with it or its members. Independent of anything mankind has ever presented me, God manifested Himself unto me, forgave me of my sins, and invited me to learn to receive of His fullness by embracing the things that my parents and Church leaders taught me as a youth. He invited me to do this so that through those things I could better learn how to wholly rely upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ and become perfected through His Holy Spirit. The same God, Jesus, and Holy Ghost who are helping me to become one with them while endorsing the LDS Church are the same Godhead that are helping me learn how to love you and desire your obtainment of their fullness despite your constant predatory antagonism. I do not worship the Book of Mormon or the Bible, Joseph Smith, temple rites, priesthoods, or the Church, but use those things to support my worship of God and the implementation of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Is it better for me to follow the Almighty God of Unconditional Love and Eternal Life or to yield to your endless supply of SECULAR REFERENCES and OPINIONS? You back up none of your views with the power of God, personal revelation, or present it through His love.
To speak in behalf of the other readers who have come to utilize the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ because of exercising faith in DIRECT REVELATION FROM GOD, “we ought to obey God rather than man” (Acts 5:29) and his SECULAR REFERENCES!!!
Only one person to ever walk this earth was perfect in everything He thought and said, that was Jesus Christ the Son of God. NO PROPHET AT ANY TIME WAS PERFECT, WE ALL HAVE TO GROW, LEARN, AND GAIN GREATER UNDERSTANDING NO MATTER WHAT GOD HAS EVER REVEALED TO US!!!
Because of the Love of God which is in me and my desire that you receive of His fullness I warn you in His Holy Name that as you continue to condemn the Church of Jesus Christ and His anointed servants, that “if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ” (BOM title page)!
Your brother in Christ
Michael
Gnostics and their teachings are also referred to as Enlightened Christian.Post from a forum: The snake (serpent) was actually Jesus, who tried to free Adam and Eve from their own ignorance by making them eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Their ascent from ignorance is reflected by them opening their eyes and seeing their nakedness (they are not clothed with knowledge, or wisdom). This angers the Demiruge, who casts them out before they can eat of the Tree of Life, which would grant them immortality which, together with the Tree of Knowledge, would make them as gods. It is through envy that we were banished. Those of you who have read Nietzche's text on christianity (affectionately entitled 'Antichrist') will know the consequences of the banishment: toil, struggle and suffering to keep us from discovering the truth.Apropos, Eve did not really come from Adam (though this myth was used to establish women as being subservient to men). Adam was put to sleep, or, if one demythologises the story, he was made ignorant, because Eve was actually a product of the Pistis Sophia (God's Wife or the Holy Spirit).Now, one could take Adam to represent the older varient and Eve to represent the newer varient, ergo their lives (at least in the garden) would represent the first stages of evolution, from hunter-gathering creature to farmer human. They left the caves (garden) and began to toil (farm) the lands. As to the Tree, I'd suspect this symbolises the evolutionary development of craftsmanship, language, rationality, et cetera. When we reached this stage of evolution, we were set above the other animals not just sociallly, but mentally. Consequently, of course, we saw how empty our lives were, how barren our landscape. We were like beasts, but no longer so fit to be so.We cast ourselves from the garden, but through our apparent need for material gains evolution, or rather, the pursuit of wisdom, slowed down and, for many, came to a gradual halt.
www.mastermason.com/hiramdiscovered
/gnostic.html
More Mormon Gnosticism
Help the young men understand that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit—
1. They would not have been able to have children. Consequently, we could not have come to a mortal world to obtain a physical body.
2. They would not have known good and evil. Consequently, no one could do good or evil, know joy or misery, or learn obedience in the face of opposition.
3. They could not have known the joy of their redemption or salvation. If there had been no fall, there would not have been a need for the Atonement, and we could not have progressed.
Because the fall of Adam was a necessary part of the plan of salvation, the scriptures say that “death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator” (2 Nephi 9:6).
Before the Fall, Adam and Eve could have no children. For this reason Adam partook of the forbidden fruit: “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Nephi 2:25). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “Adam was made to open the ways of the world” (History of the Church, 1:283). By partaking of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve opened the way for us to enter into mortality.
After the Fall, Adam and Eve fulfilled the commandment of God to multiply and replenish the earth, and “they … brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth” (2 Nephi 2:20).
Help the young men understand that the fall of Adam was as necessary to the plan of salvation as was the atonement of Jesus Christ. Without the Fall, we would not have existed and would have had no need for a Savior. Without the Fall, we would not have become mortal or known the fulness of joy that comes from having a mortal body and from choosing good over evil.
More Mormon Gnosticism - Lucifer brings Blessings - Dis-obeying God opens the door to Exaltation- Lucifer's Directions are the Path to Exaltation-
If Adam had Obeyed God man would be Damned - That is the Luciferian Mormon Doctrine - Does it make you feel warm inside?
“Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we would have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve. Why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should”
Conclusion
Scripture and quotation
Point out that Adam and Eve viewed their fall as a great blessing. Have a young man reread Moses 5:10–12.
President Joseph Fielding Smith has also given his testimony about the blessings of the Fall:
“When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. I do not know that it can truthfully be considered even as a punishment in disguise. …
“The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, and was the means of furthering the purposes of the Lord in the progress of man, rather than a means of hindering them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56], 1:113–14).
Because we understand their transgression in its true light, how should we feel about them? (We should be deeply grateful for their willingness to make mortality possible.
Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 The Fall of Adam
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=664ea41f6cc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD
More of how Lucifer was right and Mormon God was Wrong. Mormon God was confused and gave twisted commandments that God had no intention for Adam to Obey- in fact if Adam did not disobey God, Adam would be Damned, we would all be damned - It was a good thing and a great blessing that Adam early on had learned to follow the Advise of Lucifer - could you just imagined if Adam followed God we would all be Damned - Thank You!! Lucifer and Adam - God please stay out of the way with your commandments. Following Lucifer brings about salvation, exaltation, and many other blessings - Following God would mean Damnation -
Doctrines of the Gospel Student ManualChapter 8 - The Fall
D. The Fall was a purposeful step in God’s plan of salvation.
1. For our agency to function, it was necessary that Satan be allowed to tempt us (see D&C 29:39–40 ).
2. Adam’s fall gave him and his posterity the opportunity to obtain the joy that comes from choosing good over evil (see 2 Nephi 2:25–27 ; Moses 5:10–11 ).
3. If Adam and Eve had not transgressed, they would have lived forever in innocence, without children, thereby frustrating God’s plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 2:22–24 ; Moses 5:10–11 ).
4. Death is a necessary part of God’s plan (see 2 Nephi 9:6 ; Alma 42:6–8 ).
"What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do" False Mormon Lie
"“The devil in tempting Eve told a truth when he said unto her that when she should eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they should become as Gods. He told the truth in telling that, but he accompanied it with a lie as he always does. He never tells the complete truth. He said that they should not die. The Father had said that they should die. The devil had to tell a lie in order to accomplish his purposes; but there was some truth in his statement. Their eyes were opened. They had a knowledge of good and evil just as the Gods have” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:16).
False Mormon Lie- Mormons make Lucifer the Truth teller, and God's own commands Damnation.
http://institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/doc-gosp-01-10-8.asp
"herefore, it became essential to their salvation and to ours that their nature should be changed. The only way it could be changed was by the violation of the law under which they were at that time. Mortality could not come without violation of that law and mortality was essential, a step towards our exaltation." 100% Luciferian Mormon Gnostic Mason
Lucifer was not needed for man to "FALL" .Why because Mormon "god" was already conflicted in his commandments - Lucifer could have stayed in bed in the morning "god" was already conflicted, Adam and Eve could have just picked which of "gods" conflicting commandments was of lesser
importance.
It is a SIN to even imply that GOD is conflicted in his commandments - After all Mormons say the right thing to do was break GODS commandments.
Mormons say that GOD set man up so he could not obey His WORD.
"Indeed, we honor and respect Adam and Eve for their wisdom and foresight. Their lives in the Garden of Eden were blissful and pleasant; choosing to leave that behind so they and the entire human family could experience both the triumphs and travails of mortality must not have been easy. But we believe they did choose mortality, and in so doing made it possible for all of us to participate in Heavenly Father’s great, eternal plan." - M. Russell Ballard, Our Search for Happiness: An Invitation to Understand the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 87
Mormons say GOD created and placed Adam and Eve in in a state of Damnation - and that Man needed to dis-obey GOD in order to progess to progress- breaking GOD's command is Salvation
That is Luciferian Doctrine - Just like all the other things that J.Smith borrowed from Free Masonry.
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