Monday, October 25, 2010

The Fall of Adam and Eve


The presence of the two trees in the garden provided the necessary choices for Adam and Eve to keep their agency, or break their covenants. It was given to Adam to choose, but God forbad the eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.



In the pre-mortal life God instructed Man and Woman to have children:

“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth...” (Genesis 1:28)40



“...[F]or they [wives] are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.” (emphasis added Doctrine and Covenants 132:63)



This commandment and promise in the pre-mortal world are part of the Covenant of Creation. Family associations are central to the gospel plan.<1> In mortality Adam was again commanded to have Eve stay with him, to multiply, and the replenish the earth.

Lucifer, also know as Satan had been cast out of the pre-mortal realm, to a spirit realm in which he could interact in earth.

 Satan told a partial truth and Eve bought into the lie, and she ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (she was beguiled, or tricked). She approached Adam in an attempt to have him sin along with her, and he first refused. After a discussion, he realized two things:



1.) He would be alone in the world, and would not be able to keep Eve with him, and not keep that commandment (which was not his fault and would not have been a sin for him). Because of Eve’s sins Adam was faced with a problem, he could still keep the commandment, but some of the purposes of another commandment would not be met, he would be alone.



2.) Adam also understood that having children was central to God’s plan, and he would be alone in the Garden of Eden, yes there would have been no fall, but there also would have been no children (because Eve would not be there).<2> 

Adam made a choice, ate the fruit and brought sin and death into the world. “...Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.” (Moses 6:48)



Adam could have kept all of God’s commands, it was within his power. The dichotomies came into play after Eve disobeyed. 



Just as the atonement was in effect prior to the crucification (applied to many worlds), the effects of the fall existed prior to Adam’s arrival to earth too.

<3> 

The fall was a universal fall, it applied to all the world, for the time of the temporal world, forward and backward.

 The justice, or reaction, for the sins in the Garden of Eden was:

• Physical death. Death came upon man and all of earthly creation. God said that man shall surly die.



• Spiritual death.<4> God can not dwell with the least amount of sin, man could no longer dwell in the Kingdom of God, in any of it’s degrees. Without some intervention Adam and the rest of us are all going to hell, outer darkness, and endless separation from God. (Moses 5:57)

 Spiritual death is the same state of being that the Sons Of Perdition are in. LDS theology includes a “Universal Fall.”

Adam and Eve explained their reasons for the fall to God. And God explained to them the consequences (justice) of their actions. Their eyes were opened, they would die physically, they would be cast out of the Garden of Eden, they would be separated from God, they were spiritually dead, Eve would suffer in child birth, and Adam would have to work by the sweat of his brow. Thus, the state of man. 

This spiritual death that Adam and Eve experienced brought some changes to them and to us. Man inherited a fallen nature, we became devilish, carnal, sensual, and sinful. We became subject to, and servant of the devil:

“For they [the wicked] are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.” (Mosiah 16:3)

This is the state of mankind, unless and until a change takes place, we are sons of perdition. It is critical that we understand our fallen nature and position before God. We did not become recipients of the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms because of the fall, we are justly cast out to outer darkness, separated from God forever.

“Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he [Adam] should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:41)



The “first death” or the spiritual death is the “same” thing that is pronounced at the final judgement on the sons of perdition at the “second death.” And, unless there is some intervention we are all sons and daughters of perdition.



“And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.” (Alma 42:14)

“Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be...” (1 Nephi 10:6)



“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...” (Romans 5:12)



“...the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.” (2 Nephi 9:6)

“Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation.” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:40)



“...Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.” (Alma 12:22)



“...spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.” (Helaman 14:16)



“For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless...” (Mosiah 3:19)



The fall that came upon Adam and Eve, and to each of us is real, and drastic. God did not spare the fallen angels in the pre-mortal life for their sins, and if we don’t find a resolution, he will not spare us.

The resolution is Christ.
-------------------------------
<1> “We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.” The Family: A Proclamation to the World.

<2> “And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden [alone]. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.” 2 Nephi 2:22

<3> “[plants and animals] ...lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation." (Elder James E. Talmage, The Earth and Man.)

<4> “...from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death...” Doctrine and Covenants 28:41

168 comments:

Michael said...

Glad to see that you are back on. Been interested in talking to you about a my study of the Book of Mormon in the Language of Branches. Real good stuff. I found that from the title to the end, every utterance of the Book is a detailed account of the spiritually psychological experience of our intelligence from before being clothed with a spirit body to the final dwindling away of any remeniscence of pre-mortal influence while in the promised mortal tabernacle. All from the perspective of the intelligence and its everbroadening experiences. Anyway, don't have much time right now but let me know if you want me to put my findings on your page for discussion. In the language of Kabbalists, it covers the evolution of the altruistic and egoistic characteristics we have always had within our intelligence, our descension and ascension processes as told from Lehi's departure and Joseph Smiths testimony of the plates, true progression or adhesion with God as we come to know who we are as intelligence and come to know Him with a perfect knowledge through the same process, the war in heaven, our spiritual experiences as we left pre-mortality and entered into the fetus, our spiritual experiences as we grew in gestation, our spiritual experience through birth and as a mortal. It explains the plan of salvation through the eyes of the spirit/intelligence as the strong determination of the intelligence was eventually overcome by egoistic spritual desires. Prophecies throughout the book tell in detail how the desires of the mortal body would eventually overcome the egoistic spiritual desires and how salvation would eventually come through the flesh. Lots of really insightful stuff. Everything backed by LDS quotes and other scripture. Think you love the discussion if nothing else.

Michael

Anonymous said...

"Latter-day revelation makes clear that the Fall is a blessing and that Adam and Eve should be honored as the first parents of all mankind." "the beneficial effects of the Fall as part of God's "great plan of happiness"eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam

Breaking God's Commandment results in Blessings?
How many blessings are there for following Lucifer in opposition to Gods commands?

The Fall was a necessary step in the eternal progress of mankind

Disobedience was a necessary step in the eternal progress of mankind?

Was there a way that mankind to earn exaltation with out following Lucifer's prompting and obeying God?

"Without the Fall, Adam and Eve would have had no children (2 Ne. 2:23); hence, the human family would not have come into existence upon this earth under the conditions and circumstances in the garden."eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam


And Eve was glad, saying, "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient" (Moses 5:11)

unto all the obedient?????
Lets see Eve was Obedient to Lucifer and starts talk about being "Obedient"!!!!!!


The Fall was not an accident, not an obstruction to God's plan, and not a wrong turn in the course of humanity. "The Lord…created the earth that it should be inhabited" by his children (1 Ne. 17:36), and since Adam and Eve would have had no children in their Edenic condition, the Fall was a benefit to mankind. It was part of the Father's plan, being both foreknown to him and essential to the human family. All these things were "done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things" (2 Ne. 2:24).
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. They had physical life because their spirits were housed in physical bodies made from the dust of the earth (see Abraham 5:7). They had spiritual life because they were in the presence of God (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 268)

REMARKS
I, would tend to favor your Time table of events
1 Eve partook and Put Adam in the position of Now having to make a CHOICE between the two commandments.
2, Adam fell that man might be, after Eve Partook.
3, Adam was NOT deceived but the Eve the woman was in Transgression,
4, The fall came by , in, of and thru ADAM not Eve, Adam made the best of the bad situation.
5, What happened to"I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of Men save he prepare a way.......
6, It is against the Nature of a Holy and Pure God to deceive his Children, in any and all levels, else He is not Trustworthy.

Anonymous said...

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, csin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his edesire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 ¶ And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?

they would be cast out of the Garden of Eden, they would be separated from God, they were spiritually dead,

Some say Prior to the "flood" that the Garden was on the earth and that direct "communication" and the Lords "presence" was on the earth, maybe the garden was "taken up" with the city of Enoch.
what say you?

Michael said...

Hey David,
Sorry for some of my recent posts and my recent attempts to post material that I can’t seem to get the site to accept. Anyway, I believe it to be good providence in the site’s behalf because much of my late efforts have been responses to a certain Anonymous contributor. Although I do learn a lot about how all scriptures are intricately woven to prove all God’s truth from the beginning to end in such responses, I feel like I have lost out on some valuable sharing opportunities with others on the site who are actually interested in helping each other benefit from the gospel. Anyway, I hope to be able to get the site to accept this post and all further attempts. Thank you for having such a unique place to discuss the rich history of the scattering and gathering of God’s truth throughout the history of the earth. I think too that if we can keep from allowing that certain Anonymous contributor from ruffling feathers with their broken-record Pharisee/goat/Judas/wolf-in-sheeps-clothing/contentious comments, we all may be able to focus upon those finer things that really do matter. And for the record, I do hope and pray that the certain Anonymous contributor in question may be able to receive the fullness of everything that God foreordained them to receive through the Atonement of Christ. I honestly look forward to the day when we can all stand together in humble appreciation of God’s infinite goodness in helping us be conformed into His glorious image and stature despite all of our many weaknesses. Thanks everyone.

Michael

David Littlefield said...

Hey Michael!

Thanks for the comments!

I don't know what is going on with the blogger program. Others have reported similar problems.

Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

Thanks!

David

Michael said...

Hey David,

Still having a hard time getting my comments to post on your site. Been very interested in what your thoughts are concerning several things I have been studying that are prevelent to your site. If you have time please visit me at:

http://bomlanguageofbranches.blogspot.com/

You may have to cut and paste the address. I have tried looking it up on a search engine and can't find it. Just tried to set it up today. Still very new at the whole blog thing. Thanks for your inspirational site. Any other readers are welcomed to check it out as long as we can all remain open minded and willing to learn from each other. Thanks.

Michael

Michael said...

I was up all night again (several nights this week) trying to post comments about your post on the Fall. I have 3 sections worth of comments that take your text of this post and reword it substituting Christ's role and Atonement into the description of Adam's role and the Fall. The comparison was based upon 1 Corinthians 15:45-49. It shows how Adam was a type of Christ and how if we can rejoice in the consequences of the Atonement even though we are heartbroken over the events that transpired to bring it about, then we can rejoice in the consequences of the Fall even though we are heartbroken over the events that transpired to bring it about. Anyway, it was very well referenced scripturally. Parts of the same thought process were included in the comments I tried to post the other day. All of it was very supportive of what you are trying to do here and I am so frustrated that I can't get anything over a few words to post. I do understand that there is a word limit, so I usually try to break my comments down in sections. I'M PROBABLY SUPPOSE TO BE LEARNING A LESSON ABOUT HOW NOT TO BE SO LONG WINDED AND THE NEED TO STREAMLINE INFORMATION!!! haha :)

Love the sight. Wish discussions could be about what you post and not so much about having to defend ourselves against antagonists.

Michael

Anonymous said...

Michael to get you post to "STICK"
First post, with-out entering word verification and you will be prompted to enter word verification a second time that should make it STICK...

And by the way I "anonymous" am a Mormon ,
But I do not sing with the Choir and I will not wear a Tie at Church, I love the good parts of Mormon culture and people, I just do not like the lies, P.C. or false history.

Nor do i enjoy the TRUTH sacraficed Between thieves and robbers.

Anonymous said...

SO I got to thinking What makes one a
Mormon????
Can I be a Non-Believing Mormon Mormon?
Could I Be a Cultural Mormon?
Could I still be Mormon and non-LDS?
Could I be a splinter Mormon?
Can I be an After Life Polygamy Mormon?
Could I be a returned Missionary Mormon?
Could I Be a Sunstone Mormon?
Could I be a Politically Correct Mormon?
Could I be a Mormon for the TRUTH?
Could I be a Mormon for Jesus?

Kinda Like Jews For Jesus, are they still Jews?

In time I am sure to Be an
EX-Communicated Mormon or One who left on His Own.
But I will still be a True Christian!!!!!
Then I will be an "X" Mormon
Either way Leaving the Mormon Church is Hard!

Michael said...

Anonymous,

I appologize for my ignorance concerning your membership status. As well, I get frusterated with how the Church seems to be becoming secular Mormonism capable of becoming misproven (at least on a local level because the members individually lose the power of God while remaining active in Church). I get so aggrevated, especially when I sit in a Stake meeting and have Stake leaders tell me how to live "the gospel" based upon my own strength as though I am earning something or am an obligated servant. As far as I know from my experience with God and the scriptures, I am to use any commandment, duty, rite, ordinance, covenant, behavior, to become a common ground for me to meet with God and grow more familiar with Him through the Atonement of Christ. I do this following His hand-delivered encouragement that I can eventually grow into oneness with Him through Christ. I don't worship the Church, or the BOM, or the family, or the temple, or the prophet. ONLY GOD CAN TEACH ME HOW TO BECOME CONFORMED INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS CHARACTER, ATTRIBUTES, AND PERFECTIONS!!! However, if I use my time to look for things/places within the Church/gospel/leaders that provide opportunity for more focused intent, I can worship God through Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Church without worshipping the Church. I don't feel like any of the people who contribute to this site are church worshippers. I know many inside and outside the Church who worship any and every appendage of the gospel but God. It doesn't seem to be that way here. I don't personally feel like the Church has ever taught me to feel like Adam and Eve "Fell Up." If you re-read the whole chapter in the book of Moses where Adam and Eve rejoice it makes sense. (I don't have my scriptures with me or I would reference it). God kicks them out of the garden in the openning verses. Then God comments that Adam has been obedient to everything He has commanded him since the Fall, and that Eve is with him in obedience to everything God has commanded. Then it discusses Adam and Eve's children becoming numberous enough to pair off and have children of their own (many years later). Then it discusses Adam receiving the command from God to make animal scrifice. After Adam is obedient to that too an angel comes to explain what the sacrifice means. I don't know of any Christian denomination that would say that what the angel taught Adam was wrong even if they don't believe in the book of Moses. After the angel leaves, Adam is filled with the Holy Ghost and begins to prophesy. It is only after being obedient to God, doing animal sacrifice, having an angel teach him about the Atonement, and being filled with the Holy Ghost that Adam declares that his eyes are now openned and he can rejoice in the Fall because of the Atonement.

Part 1 of 2
Michael

Michael said...

Anonymous,

I appologize for my ignorance concerning your membership status. As well, I get frusterated with how the Church seems to be becoming secular Mormonism capable of becoming misproven (at least on a local level because the members individually lose the power of God while remaining active in Church). I get so aggrevated, especially when I sit in a Stake meeting and have Stake leaders tell me how to live "the gospel" based upon my own strength as though I am earning something or am an obligated servant. As far as I know from my experience with God and the scriptures, I am to use any commandment, duty, rite, ordinance, covenant, behavior, to become a common ground for me to meet with God and grow more familiar with Him through the Atonement of Christ. I do this following His hand-delivered encouragement that I can eventually grow into oneness with Him through Christ. I don't worship the Church, or the BOM, or the family, or the temple, or the prophet. ONLY GOD CAN TEACH ME HOW TO BECOME CONFORMED INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS CHARACTER, ATTRIBUTES, AND PERFECTIONS!!! However, if I use my time to look for things/places within the Church/gospel/leaders that provide opportunity for more focused intent, I can worship God through Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Church without worshipping the Church. I don't feel like any of the people who contribute to this site are church worshippers. I know many inside and outside the Church who worship any and every appendage of the gospel but God. It doesn't seem to be that way here. I don't personally feel like the Church has ever taught me to feel like Adam and Eve "Fell Up." If you re-read the whole chapter in the book of Moses where Adam and Eve rejoice it makes sense. (I don't have my scriptures with me or I would reference it). God kicks them out of the garden in the openning verses. Then God comments that Adam has been obedient to everything He has commanded him since the Fall, and that Eve is with him in obedience to everything God has commanded. Then it discusses Adam and Eve's children becoming numberous enough to pair off and have children of their own (many years later). Then it discusses Adam receiving the command from God to make animal scrifice. After Adam is obedient to that too an angel comes to explain what the sacrifice means. I don't know of any Christian denomination that would say that what the angel taught Adam was wrong even if they don't believe in the book of Moses. After the angel leaves, Adam is filled with the Holy Ghost and begins to prophesy. It is only after being obedient to God, doing animal sacrifice, having an angel teach him about the Atonement, and being filled with the Holy Ghost that Adam declares that his eyes are now openned and he can rejoice in the Fall because of the Atonement.

Part 1 of 2
Michael

Michael said...

Then Eve rejoices in response to her husband's inspired testimony in hind sight. This does not happen immediately after they partake of the forbidden fruit in the garden and their eyes are opened to know good from evil. The temple video may cause some confusion because of the need to fit the endowment ceremony into a specified amount of time. Adam and Eve only rejoice years later, after God has taken them through some long repentance and continued education on the Atonement. They still only rejoice as a result of Adam being filled with the Holy Spirit while receiving hope through the Atonement. It is not recorded that they ever rejoiced or had hope prior to this specific time when God prepared them to understand what Christ's Atonement could do for them and their children. They are grateful and rejoice that even though they Fell, they have now been able to have children and fill the earth with people so that Christ's Atonement can be used to fulfill God's purpose. They are not happy that they listened to Satan or that they now have the knowledge of good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is always second rate compared to the knowledge of eternal life. G&E causes judgment, shame, blame, and hiding from the presence of God to get by on one's own works. Knowledge of eternal life brings people back to God through Christ and offers hope, sanctification, exaltation, unity among believers, etc. That is what Adam and Eve rejoiced in because they were restored through Christ's Atonement and the Holy Ghost to have hope again in eternal life for them and their seed. I feel like that what David is trying to accomplish with this blog. We all only want to grow as close to God as we can, while being conformed into His image through Christ and we develop greater understanding and experience in eternal things. Why is that un-Christian? Why does that make so-called Mormonism un-Christian? I know that the more the closer we come to the Second Coming the more the Church members will try to kick God's power out of the gospel equation much like the Pharisees and Saducees in the meridian of time. But even if half the members become fooled by Satan (shown in parable of 10 virgins), we can still hold fast to those things that prepare us to enter in to the fullness of His power and glory. The only way to prepare is to begin now to grow into it through Christ and the Holy Ghost. That is the gift of eternal life, to be able to finish the process of growing into oneness with God through Christ's Atonement and gospel.

Michael

Anonymous said...

I wish everybody well, I need to escaped from
Mormonism, I have Issues about The Death Oaths of Masonry that I Took in the Temple.
I am trying to figure out how I want to confront the church on that issue.
Just leaving the church and/or ex-communicated will not be enough.
I shall untie that which should not have been knotted.
I trust in GOD. I will be requesting a church court action in 2011 that will be the start of Exit date.
I have no other church I am Joining, I just cannot be a mormon any Longer.

David Littlefield said...

Annon:

What do you mean "escape from Mormonism?"

Nobody is chasing you, or forcing you to do or say anything. Even with your apostate statements, nobody is trying to find you.

If you don't like the church, just don't go. When Elders come to do their christian duty to check on your welfare, just tell them that you don't believe in the church and to leave you alone.

That's all that is required! You don't need some neurotic prolonged struggle.

And if that is not good enough, just ask them to have your name removed. No court is requred for you to give you manifesto, they just remove it.

Why is it that when ever someone leaves they church, they feel they must spend their lives fighting against it?

David

Nathan said...

David: There would have been no fall, but there also would have been no children (because Eve would not be there).

If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, you believe that Adam and Eve could procreate while still in the garden. That is, when Lehi says "they would have had no children" (2 Ne. 2:22), you would explain that by saying that their separation would have been the only thing that prevented them from bearing children. Am I understanding you right?

I ask because I think that the modern prophets have implied otherwise. I think that the best, most consistent interpretation of the Fall includes the idea that Adam and Eve were not capable of procreation before eating the fruit, regardless of being together or apart. If you like, I can share quotes from modern prophets to support that.

I think this idea matters a lot because it relates to theodicy, the problem of evil. I think it's one of the most profound truths the restored gospel offers, and I think it would help if more members understood it. If you're interested, I can explain what I mean.

Nathan said...

Michael: The knowledge of good and evil is always second rate compared to the knowledge of eternal life. G&E causes judgment, shame, blame, and hiding from the presence of God to get by on one's own works.

Why do you say that? I agree that knowledge of good and evil has its very unpleasant sides, and that it involves the risk of becoming prideful and sinful. But doesn't the Lord also acknowledge that by obtaining knowledge of good and evil, "the man is become as one of us"? To me, that says knowledge of good and evil is a Godly trait, one that is necessary for becoming like the Father.

Anonymous said...

Is, was It under the direction and influence of the Holy Ghostor GODS will that Adam and Eve partook of the Fruit and disobeyed GOD, or was it under the direction and influence of Lucifer when They obeyed Lucifer?????

Anonymous said...

"I think that the best, most consistent interpretation of the Fall includes the idea that Adam and Eve were not capable of procreation before eating the fruit, regardless of being together or apart. If you like, I can share quotes from modern prophets to support that."

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

I never have undersood how the Mormon Brain can comprehend or Think that God Set-up Adam and Eve in The Garden, That is all of that Falling-Up to Exaltation and Following Lucifer in The Garden, It is because of all of these Luciferian Gnostic Gnotions that I see a Mason Hidding in every Christmass Tree.

Michael said...

Nathan,

God knows everything, so of course He would know Good from Evil. But as far as which is superior. It is life eternal to know God and Jesus so that we may be one (John 17:all). Eternal life encompasses the knowledge of Good and Evil, but the knowledge of Good and Evil will never be better than knowing and becoming one with God and Jesus. Even on our Goodest day we are nothing compared to them. Knowing Good from Evil is equated with having a conscience or the Light of Christ, which all men have, but Eternal Life is reserved for those who have truly learned to love and need God more than anything else.

Michael

Anonymous said...

Eternal life encompasses the knowledge of Good and Evil!!!!!!!!

Question- Did Jesus Christ Need to Fall, Did he Fall, Did he Partake of some fall and Inherit knowledge of good and evil thru his earth father Adam thru Eve?

Michael said...

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...(Romans 8:3)

God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law...(Galatians 4:4)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels...(Hebrews 2:9)

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted.(Isaiah 53:4)

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And BEING MADE perfect, he BECAME the author of eternal salvation...(Hebrews 5:8,9)

Anonymous said...

Eternal life encompasses the knowledge of Good and Evil!!!!!!!!

So did Jesus Sin, was it his Part to sin so he could have a Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Was He a Fallen Son?

Was He in a Fallen State?

Did Jesus Fall from Heaven?

Was he a Sinner so he could taste Evil?

Was He born perfect?

What does this mean "who was made a little lower than the angels.."

Was He a Created being or a Son?

Was He Made Perfect or did he Evolve?

Was he made Perfect or did He evolve and was becoming perfect?

Did He Need to receive His knowledge under the Act of Sin of Lucifer and Adam's obedience to Lucifer?

Was Lucifer Part of Jesus Needful Exaltation Process?

Michael said...

Anonymous,

"What does this mean "who was made a little lower than the angels..""

You will have to ask God what the author of Hebrews meant when he wrote that.

"Was He a Created being or a Son?"

"Was He Made Perfect or did he Evolve?"

"Was he made Perfect or did He evolve and was becoming perfect?"

"Did He Need to receive His knowledge under the Act of Sin of Lucifer and Adam's obedience to Lucifer?"

"Was Lucifer Part of Jesus Needful Exaltation Process?"


He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Revelation 21:7)


Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and HAVE THE KEYS OF HELL AND DEATH. (Revelation 1:17 - 18)

While you are asking Him about Hebrews ask Him if Jesus could have overcome hell and death if there would have been no hell and death. Hmm. I guess if Satan didn't play into God's plan then there would be no Satan, or maybe you think old Scratch really has a chance to thwart the Almighty. If Satan is out of God's control then God must not be all powerful, all knowing, or the greatest above all things.

God is all powerful and used His foreknowledge to know that casting Satan out to earth would provide the best circumstances to provide mankind with free will, mortality, and allow Jesus the circumstances to carry out the Atonement while respecting man's freedom to choose.

If you have issues with God's plan, maybe you should get to know Him and have Him explain it to you. I know that Jesus suffered infinite pain and anguish so that you can find out from God what its all about if you choose to. I love you and hope for His sake that you allow His Atonement to heal your broken life.

Michael

Anonymous said...

My point is GOD is TRUTH His WORD is TRUTH
His Son is TRUTH and Perfect.

Jesus of His own Free will came to earth of Gods will and accord, Jesus was perfect from the Beginning,

In the Beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,

1 In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was eGod.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were amade by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The WORD came here for Us
NOT to work out His Salvation- Thru Lucifer or Cain
Or Freemasonry

He Did not Need The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Neither did you

Anonymous said...

Plain and Simple
Two Trees
One The Tree of LIFE (Free Gift)
or
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Death)
Life or Death

Death was chosen out of Pride

That Knowledge of (Pride) was the Death sentence.
To be wise as God

GODS good free gift was too Good

Many today also reject the free Gift and out of pride also want the Gnosis of that Tree of Knowledge
(death) Tower builders working with the works of their hands and gnosis climbing up to Heaven, working their way To Heaven.

Thinking with their Mastery of the Mysteries and their Better understanding that they have earned their place in heaven, NOT

Michael said...

Anonymous,

I am intrigued by your zeal to oppose that which you deem to be false and am curious to know what you have found to be truth. I believe that some who read these posts would not consider you at first to be as Peter, who declared:

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in rememberance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth (2 Peter 1:10-12).

But may by first impression believe you to be more akin to:

...the accuser of our brethren... which accused them before our God day and night (Revelation 12:10).

I would like to give you the opportunity to step away from the defense and to share some “good news” about God's intentions for us through Jesus Christ. So that instead of only having the opportunity to encourage us about what not to do you can have more fair ground to invite us to what we ought to do. I know that I for one would feel as though a great milestone will have been accomplished if we are finally at a point where we seem to be exchanging “good news” with one another in a manner that helps us unite under the head of Jesus Christ. I would like very much to FEEL your testimony of God's plan. I think it would be helpful for the LDS readers if you shared your understanding of the Godhead. I think some may have been confused as you have stated many times that so-called Mormons are not so-called Christians. Meaning thus, that I don't think it may be clear in the mind of the readers if you are refering to the multitude of sects who believe in the Trinity doctrine and man taking upon himself the honor of claiming priesthood by desire only instead of being called of God as was Aaron (Hebrews 5:4) as the so-called Christians or if you are refering to another group or sect. I really am anxious to hear your beliefs and think you will be suprised by how many readers agree with doctrines and principles that you believe help us live the gospel better.

Michael

Anonymous said...

www.mormonwiki.com/Fall
Mormons have a conflicted "god"
GOD is not the Author of Confusion.
The Lord had given them two conflicting commandments. The fact that there were two conflicting commandments actually provided them with agency by placing before them a choice. The Lord told them that if they did eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would "die."

First Preach Repentance and Freedom from Lies and Traditions.
How many Missionaries does the Mormon church have? I do a little preaching here and you all get Bent!!!! Repent Repent Repent!!!!!!!!!!!
Alma 30: 1616 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.
http://restorationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm
www.exmormon.org/

Col. 2: 8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Joseph's contacts with the Hermetic mythos were sufficient to generate vague assumptions about Masonry's earlier roots, and these assumptions could have been an historical subtext to his remarks about Masonry being a remnant of ancient priesthood. Interestingly, modern historical examination of the occult tradition suggests a shadow of truth in Joseph's statement: Kabbalah and Hermeticism, as representatives of a historical stream of occult knowledge (or as reservoirs of Gnosticism) did claim ancient lineages of "priesthood." Joseph had every reason to take those claims seriously, as do historians today, albeit within a narrower interpretive context. In this light, Joseph's connection to Masonry takes on several different shades of meaning.
www.gnosis.org/jskabb3.htm

Mormons Tend to Have a Gnostic View and are in the Gnostic Camp v/s the traditional Christian Camp!

Just Pray for forgiveness and Trust in God He will direct your way. You have made a "god" of your Books,Religion, Church, and Temples and fallen view!!!!
REPENT!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Bad Boy Korihor
And Korihor said unto him:
16 But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so.
Korihor was Wrong by mixing Traditions v/s Truth
but a Frenzied Mind can get you!!!!!

Some Traditions are Good some are Bad

Jesus put it this way
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall aknow the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Freemasonry

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Masons
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Freemasonry and Gnosticism
www.thinkabouteternity.org/LDS/Tracts/Questions4Mormons.htm

Anonymous said...

Have you have ever submitted yourself to God in this way—confessing your total inability to even contribute toward your own salvation, and relying entirely on Him alone to save you? Jesus said, “All that the Father gives me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37). If you are still trusting in yourself or your own efforts to somehow work together with Jesus’ work, to win eternal life with God, then you simply have not truly come to Jesus. He wants all your trust. You must come to Him on His terms—you must put all your trust on Him alone—and He will not cast you out, but receive you to Himself. Why not do it now?

www.thinkabouteternity.org/LDS/Tracts
/Questions4Mormons.htm

Anonymous said...

The Good News Gospel ???????
Good One
For me I do not have another church to go to.
I told my Bishop that I did not believe all of the stuff about the Mormon Fall, Polygamy, Freemasonry
Etc......... But it is the Hardest thing in my life to let go of, I have tried to be at peace on these issues and could not, The deeper I dug into church history the darker it has become. I am working it out with my Bishop what I will do. I do not hate Mormons I just do not Believe ( call me Korihor if you Like)
My cult-ture is Mormon as is some of my Family.
I could be wrong, But what if i am right
(Momonism is a Lie) then we are all in trouble.
and yes i mean Trouble. I love Mormons, Family History Etc.... I still does not make it right

Michael said...

Anonymous,

I am saddened to see that you have no good news to live by and have no way of encouraging and uplifting others unto God through Jesus Christ and His gospel. I was really hoping to have something good to build upon with you unto union in Christ although there are obvious differences in our personal preferences.

Please forgive the blunt nature of this question, but I think it is one that you should seriously consider.

ARE YOU EVER GOING TO PROMOTE ANY POSITIVE METHODS OF IMPLEMENTING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO THE FULFILLING OF GOD’S PURPOSES OR ARE YOU SO ATE UP WITH DARKNESS AND VENOM THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE UNCEASINGLY TO PREY UPON HUMBLE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST AND CONTINUE TO SEEK TO DISCOURAGE THEM FROM EXERCISING FAITH IN THE REVELATIONS HE HAS GIVEN THEM BECAUSE OF HIS MERCY AND GRACE?

I was raised in the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, but as a teenager fell away completely from any contact with it or its members. Independent of anything mankind has ever presented me, God manifested Himself unto me, forgave me of my sins, and invited me to learn to receive of His fullness by embracing the things that my parents and Church leaders taught me as a youth. He invited me to do this so that through those things I could better learn how to wholly rely upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ and become perfected through His Holy Spirit. The same God, Jesus, and Holy Ghost who are helping me to become one with them while endorsing the LDS Church are the same Godhead that are helping me learn how to love you and desire your obtainment of their fullness despite your constant predatory antagonism. I do not worship the Book of Mormon or the Bible, Joseph Smith, temple rites, priesthoods, or the Church, but use those things to support my worship of God and the implementation of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Is it better for me to follow the Almighty God of Unconditional Love and Eternal Life or to yield to your endless supply of SECULAR REFERENCES and OPINIONS? You back up none of your views with the power of God, personal revelation, or present it through His love.

To speak in behalf of the other readers who have come to utilize the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ because of exercising faith in DIRECT REVELATION FROM GOD, “we ought to obey God rather than man” (Acts 5:29) and his SECULAR REFERENCES!!!

Only one person to ever walk this earth was perfect in everything He thought and said, that was Jesus Christ the Son of God. NO PROPHET AT ANY TIME WAS PERFECT, WE ALL HAVE TO GROW, LEARN, AND GAIN GREATER UNDERSTANDING NO MATTER WHAT GOD HAS EVER REVEALED TO US!!!

Because of the Love of God which is in me and my desire that you receive of His fullness I warn you in His Holy Name that as you continue to condemn the Church of Jesus Christ and His anointed servants, that “if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ” (BOM title page)!

Your brother in Christ
Michael

Anonymous said...

Yosef waiting for you here!!!!!!!!!
Okay so there it Is lets first deal with the fall in Its aspects as reflected in mormonism.
1. Did GOD really Give two conflicting commandments, that one could not be obeyed with out breaking the OTHER- If you believe this "god" is the Author of Sin not Satan-
2. God would not be PURE and HOLY if He gave two commandments that were in conflict with each other- is God trustworthy?
3. Was it God's wish that Adam would disobey His commandments and Obey Lucifer so Adam could become Exalted? if so that is Gnostic
4 Please explain some rational explanation to This Mormon Gnostic Belief other than that Joseph Smith borrowed it from the Freemasons - and said "thus saith"-
5. Luciferians, Masons, Mormons and Satanist are Gnostic, Why did the Mormons pick the Gnostic view?
6. Why are Mormons in that Gnostic camp with Like company? Traditional Christians are not Gnostic. Do you agree or disagree about Mormon being in the Gnostic Camp?

Please take time to read the previous post and look at the links provided, that will lay out the ground work and from were I get some of my perspective.

The Fall and Nature of God is all related to the Fall-
Mormons have a "different" view on the subject of the Fall- Please advise me if you are defending the LDS point of View or your Own View in your responses- for now lets Focus on the Fall.
Thank you.
I hope this page works Better!!!!!!

Yosef said...

Anonymous,

I feel that in order for us to truly be able to have a fruitful discussion on the aforementioned topics, we really need a good foundation or standard on which to base our series of talks around. It is clear that you have many frustrations with the LDS, but I don’t think you have found anything that is 100% agreeable to compensate for the religious wants/needs in your life. I say this only because I feel that within your search for truth, if you had already found it, you would embrace it and leave the LDS baggage aside. Please take no offense to that remark. I only speak in reference to times in my life when I needed to move on to more productive atmospheres despite my hang-ups with the current and past situations. Although it was hard, I recognized the wisdom in not passing up something that was healthy for me in favor of striving to make an impossible situation right. So it is my guess, that if you found that special place already, you would wholly embrace it with no regrets.

I am becoming more familiar with the specific manner (wording) of questions that you pose. However, I do not think that if I answer your questions in the manner in which you ask them, that you would be any closer to finding the closure or the epitome of the spiritual lifestyle that you are seeking. I full well intend to specifically address each topic, however I believe that you are looking for something much more than just to prove once and for all that LDS is false. If you could sever all ties to LDS with no regrets, then what would you do? Where would you go to find fellowship with others of your own heart and mind? Hopefully, as we approach these topics, it will help you become more aware of what it is you are actually looking to embrace, and help you to be able to lay hold upon the truth you desire to find with every ounce of strength that you have.
1

Yosef said...

If this is something you are interested in, I will continue with the set course. It is my desire to be able to discuss the topics in a non-confrontational way, although I do not expect us to agree on everything. I will also keep in mind that you are very passionate about the said topics, so I will try not to be alarmed if you get excited during the discussions. It is not my intention to convince you one way or the other about anything. However, I do believe that there is much to be said about your topics that you may or may not know. I do not ask you to agree with my particular manner of worship or any organizations that I may be affiliated with, but I would encourage you to remain open minded as we continue in this correspondence. I think you will find that all the aforementioned schools of thought are more related and less related than you may have previously realized. I believe that once we can really take a closer look at the groups and the topics, while using our model of “true Christianity,” you can gain the closure you need to move freely within, or away from, any of the aforementioned groups. Meaning thus, that after it is all said and done, you will need not have any regrets for the choices that you make concerning religion. You will then be most assuredly headed in the direction you feel is the most empowering in your life; you will gain a level of freedom in your life that offers the Divine peace, comfort, and fellowship that you seek. Again, it is not my intention to tell you what that path is, only to open you up to new possibilities via perspective, so that you can make that choice independent of anyone else.

I am anxious to begin correspondence on the Fall, and then to move to your next choice of topics. However, again I feel as though that will be a most difficult journey if we do not have a proper model by which to measure “true Christianity.” Please let me know if you are willing to continue, and I will begin to introduce possible candidates for our model.

Shalom
Yosef
3

Yosef said...

So up front, I will not just be answering your questions as you pose them. If I did, it would not change the way I feel about life, God, LDS, or anything else. I would not be convinced to believe and live any other way than I already do. I don’t believe it would change much for you either. To limit our discussion to only abrupt answers to those questions, would leave a vast amount of gray area and would not really be giving you anything other than what you already have. I mentioned before, that my methods are not typical of western culture and I apologize again for imposing mandatory accommodations to be made on your end. However, if you could please bear with me, I believe that every discrepancy that you have found within the LDS will be satisfactorily addressed, and we may both come out edified, more open, and possibly friends who are able to agree to disagree when needed.

To begin with, I feel like we need to find a solid model, by which we can compare LDS, Gnosticism, Luciferianism, Freemasonry, what has become known as Orthodox Judaism, and what has become known as “traditional Christianity.” (All of these groups in one way or another fall within the realms of your questions.) I believe that since we are both Christian, if we can agree on a model, or some basic truths, by which to measure “true Christianity,” we will have the most appropriate model to compare the rest of the aforementioned schools of thought to. As we have yet to find a mutually agreeable measuring stick of true Christianity, I will propose some standards that are contained within the Christian Bible (OT/NT, no apocryphal/extra biblical material), and will seek to find a common ground with which to meet you. I of course welcome your comments, approval, and disapproval. However, please keep in mind that I am not asking you to comment on these standards based upon any of the aforementioned group’s teachings on them. I am only trying to reach a base agreement with you, so that then we will be able to discuss your topics based upon the standard agreement that we have come to. Otherwise, our talks may only consist of us venting about what we don’t agree with.
2

Yosef said...

So up front, I will not just be answering your questions as you pose them. If I did, it would not change the way I feel about life, God, LDS, or anything else. I would not be convinced to believe and live any other way than I already do. I don’t believe it would change much for you either. To limit our discussion to only abrupt answers to those questions, would leave a vast amount of gray area and would not really be giving you anything other than what you already have. I mentioned before, that my methods are not typical of western culture and I apologize again for imposing mandatory accommodations to be made on your end. However, if you could please bear with me, I believe that every discrepancy that you have found within the LDS will be satisfactorily addressed, and we may both come out edified, more open, and possibly friends who are able to agree to disagree when needed.

To begin with, I feel like we need to find a solid model, by which we can compare LDS, Gnosticism, Luciferianism, Freemasonry, what has become known as Orthodox Judaism, and what has become known as “traditional Christianity.” (All of these groups in one way or another fall within the realms of your questions.) I believe that since we are both Christian, if we can agree on a model, or some basic truths, by which to measure “true Christianity,” we will have the most appropriate model to compare the rest of the aforementioned schools of thought to. As we have yet to find a mutually agreeable measuring stick of true Christianity, I will propose some standards that are contained within the Christian Bible (OT/NT, no apocryphal/extra biblical material), and will seek to find a common ground with which to meet you. I of course welcome your comments, approval, and disapproval. However, please keep in mind that I am not asking you to comment on these standards based upon any of the aforementioned group’s teachings on them. I am only trying to reach a base agreement with you, so that then we will be able to discuss your topics based upon the standard agreement that we have come to. Otherwise, our talks may only consist of us venting about what we don’t agree with.
2

Yosef said...

Still having problems getting my post to not disappear after a few minutes. Please read in numerical order for best clarification. Sorry.

Yosef said...

Anonymous,

I feel that in order for us to truly be able to have a fruitful discussion on the aforementioned topics, we really need a good foundation or standard on which to base our series of talks around. It is clear that you have many frustrations with the LDS, but I don’t think you have found anything that is 100% agreeable to compensate for the religious wants/needs in your life. I say this only because I feel that within your search for truth, if you had already found it, you would embrace it and leave the LDS baggage aside. Please take no offense to that remark. I only speak in reference to times in my life when I needed to move on to more productive atmospheres despite my hang-ups with the current and past situations. Although it was hard, I recognized the wisdom in not passing up something that was healthy for me in favor of striving to make an impossible situation right. So it is my guess, that if you found that special place already, you would wholly embrace it with no regrets.

I am becoming more familiar with the specific manner (wording) of questions that you pose. However, I do not think that if I answer your questions in the manner in which you ask them, that you would be any closer to finding the closure or the epitome of the spiritual lifestyle that you are seeking. I full well intend to specifically address each topic, however I believe that you are looking for something much more than just to prove once and for all that LDS is false. If you could sever all ties to LDS with no regrets, then what would you do? Where would you go to find fellowship with others of your own heart and mind? Hopefully, as we approach these topics, it will help you become more aware of what it is you are actually looking to embrace, and help you to be able to lay hold upon the truth you desire to find with every ounce of strength that you have.
1

Anonymous said...

Yosef, Maybe sometimes I have a tendency to be a Zealot and to over speak, and I am honest to say in somethings I need more Light, and I know that I am not always Right, But I try to be honest. and Repent
I believe GOD can save me if I am Honest, have an open heart and Mind- When I say I believe in TRUTH
TRUTH encompasses The Title names of JESUS and GOD His Father- I do not perfectly understand "GOD"
and I know that GOD is Eternal Life and the Father of IT.
I think that Tradition and "religion" has distorted and twisted the True Vision of God- I also think that humanity Has tried to Conform "God" into their "Idea"
of "God" trying to make "god" conform to their Pagan Ideas of God. I think that GOD and the Truth are very different and far Removed from the false Images of God. I think "religion" would kill Him Again.
TRUTH has to be First, TRUST is next for Me.
As best I can I must be honest with GOD and the TRUTH and be Honest with Myself. If I am Honest I think GOD has exposure to my Heart and can right his Law on the Tables of Flesh-
I must be willing to Trust in the Truth and "Let"
GOD be a Light in my Life to show me where I need to repent, the hard part is really repenting,
It is hard to repent because we create Habits and Comfort Zones. Having Courage to "Let Go and Let GOD" goes back to the Trust to be able to Lean on the Truth will faith and confidence in a Hope of Eternal Life- I think That Hope is very Important
"Hope and Change" in a Holy direction is Important.
I also understand that Jesus had "out called ones"
I understand Kingdom Theology and The "Church"
I am like Joseph Smith before he Had "his" Vision.
I have no "church" I do not Trust -lean on Mormonism, I had to make a Departure because of a lack of Trust in that Organization as Being God's.
I still Trust in God's Truth .
Number one Reason for Leaving -
Freemasonry and Mormon Temple Masonry
and The Fall from the Mormon views.
Numbers in Mormonism are Falling - The leadership needs to understand it is very Hard to leave the Church- Harder than staying and just saying
"all is well in Zion yea all is well"
In or out of the Church there are many things not able to understand- but those that I do I live the best I can.
So Yosef- all I ask is that you share with me the Best that you can and give me your Insights and how you deal with some of the Issues. I will respect what you say even if we Disagree- It is all about the Truth
I know one day I will be Dead and account to God.
I care more for my daughter and others that are Young and Looking forward, I pray for Those, because we know what is coming and Who is coming. The elderly need much comfort too.

Yosef said...

Anonymous,

For some reason this didn't stick with the rest of my previous post.

I feel that in order for us to truly be able to have a fruitful discussion on the aforementioned topics, we really need a good foundation or standard on which to base our series of talks around. It is clear that you have many frustrations with the LDS, but I don’t think you have found anything that is 100% agreeable to compensate for the religious wants/needs in your life. I say this only because I feel that within your search for truth, if you had already found it, you would embrace it and leave the LDS baggage aside. Please take no offense to that remark. I only speak in reference to times in my life when I needed to move on to more productive atmospheres despite my hang-ups with the current and past situations. Although it was hard, I recognized the wisdom in not passing up something that was healthy for me in favor of striving to make an impossible situation right. So it is my guess, that if you found that special place already, you would wholly embrace it with no regrets.

I am becoming more familiar with the specific manner (wording) of questions that you pose. However, I do not think that if I answer your questions in the manner in which you ask them, that you would be any closer to finding the closure or the epitome of the spiritual lifestyle that you are seeking. I full well intend to specifically address each topic, however I believe that you are looking for something much more than just to prove once and for all that LDS is false. If you could sever all ties to LDS with no regrets, then what would you do? Where would you go to find fellowship with others of your own heart and mind? Hopefully, as we approach these topics, it will help you become more aware of what it is you are actually looking to embrace, and help you to be able to lay hold upon the truth you desire to find with every ounce of strength that you have.
1

Yosef said...

This evening I will go ahead and begin submitting some proposals for us to consider for our study. Thank you for sharing your remarks. Sorry my comments have been posted incomplete and out of sequential order.

Shalom
Yosef

Nathan said...

I'm still curious to hear David's clarification/answer to my question on Nov. 11. I promise I'm not a troll, David. :-) I just wanted to know if I was understanding your post correctly regarding Adam and Eve's ability to procreate.

Yosef said...

(This was the first part of the 3 posts that only posted part 2 & 3.)

I feel that in order for us to truly be able to have a fruitful discussion on the aforementioned topics, we really need a good foundation or standard on which to base our series of talks around. It is clear that you have many frustrations with the LDS, but I don’t think you have found anything that is 100% agreeable to compensate for the religious wants/needs in your life. I say this only because I feel that within your search for truth, if you had already found it, you would embrace it and leave the LDS baggage aside. Please take no offense to that remark. I only speak in reference to times in my life when I needed to move on to more productive atmospheres despite my hang-ups with the current and past situations. Although it was hard, I recognized the wisdom in not passing up something that was healthy for me in favor of striving to make an impossible situation right. So it is my guess, that if you found that special place already, you would wholly embrace it with no regrets.

I am becoming more familiar with the specific manner (wording) of questions that you pose. However, I do not think that if I answer your questions in the manner in which you ask them, that you would be any closer to finding the closure or the epitome of the spiritual lifestyle that you are seeking. I full well intend to specifically address each topic, however I believe that you are looking for something much more than just to prove once and for all that LDS is false. If you could sever all ties to LDS with no regrets, then what would you do? Where would you go to find fellowship with others of your own heart and mind? Hopefully, as we approach these topics, it will help you become more aware of what it is you are actually looking to embrace, and help you to be able to lay hold upon the truth you desire to find with every ounce of strength that you have.
1

David Littlefield said...

Hi Nathan!

I am familiar with most of what has been said on the matter of could Adam and Eve had children before the fall. And because of the long debate on this matter, I know that people are dug in on both sides, mostly on the opposite side from where I sit.

So my prior post and current position is not from ignorance, but from how I put all the pieces together. And I see this problem, but not the doctrine, as being a bit complicated. I won’t rehash my post where I lay out the doctrine as I see it. But I will try and describe the problem as I see it.

First, I think that most people only have a very superficial understanding of the doctrine, and don’t care to study in any depth. Second, good people disagree on the topic (And this may be you and me), and the largest of the problems, it that we have a couple very short descriptions of the whole doctrine/history, that are really approaching a gloss over of the topic.

For example; is someone where to ask you if Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison, as Peter taught, would you say yes or no? Either answer can be considered true and false, only a fuller understanding describes the truth.

Closer to the topic, and just as hotly debated, is did plants, animals, insects, germs, etc. come to life and or die before the fall of Adam. I know all the material that says nothing died, and that Adam’s fall brought death into the world. But, it is within the pale of Mormon theology (on the edge perhaps, but with the company of some apostles) that Adam’s transgression did bring about the fall, forwards and backwards in time, but things lived and died for billions of years before Adam was born. So, did Adam’s fall bring death to our world? Either answer can be considered true and false, only a fuller understanding describes the truth.

The same with Christ’s atonement, did His atonement bring salvation to men? Then was there no Salvation before the cross? Either answer can be considered true and false, only a fuller understanding describes the truth.

And in my view, the answer to the question of “could Adam and Eve have had children before the fall?” can be considered true and false, only a fuller understanding describes the truth.

-David

Nathan said...

Thanks for replying. I'm interested in how you assemble all the pieces. Could you link me to the post(s) where you lay out your understanding of this topic? I'd love to read your thoughts.

Anonymous said...

David Plays Dodge Ball
"And in my view, the answer to the question of “could Adam and Eve have had children before the fall?” can be considered true and false, only a fuller understanding describes the truth."

I want to kick the Ball.
If God gave two commandments that were in Conflict and contradiction
God would be the Author and Finisher of SIN- Not Faith-

I do not care how you read the Scriptures If God Gave conflicted commandments He would Not Be trustworthy or God - That is the Now "More" offical doctrine of Mormonism and it ties into Gnosticism and the True Nature of God or the "god" that you believe in- I really do not see how anyone could believe it would Be Right,HOLY or Trustworthy of God to Give conflicted Commandments, It goes against everything about be good and godly.

David Littlefield said...

Anon:

You missed the entire point.

David

Anonymous said...

I Got your point- Even If Santa Clause Told me That God Gave Two commandments That were in conflict I would not Believe It- Or an Angel or an Elf or a Talking Reindeer- Would not, Could Not, Should Not, No Never!
It goes against Everything about a trustworthy God.
Okay not Dodge Ball, Soft Ball!!!!!!

Yosef said...

Part 1
Please forgive my breech of plans, but I feel like this will help David explain his stance on the Fall. I will resume our original study plans tomorrow.

In order to make sense of the Fall of Adam and Eve, we must first make sense of the Condescension and Atonement of Jesus Christ. For as Adam was a type of that which was to come in Christ, Christ in fullness bears even greater light and significance in understanding all of His various types and shadows.

“Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ…and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him” (2 Nephi 11:4).

“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly” (1 Corinthians 15:45-49).

God is faithful, all-wise, and foreknowing. God foreknew the choices that all of His children would make, and yet provided a perfect system where they could be free to choose and where His purposes would still come to pass.

Michael said...

Part 2
Jesus is the Bridegroom and mankind is His Bride (Isaiah 62:5). God commanded them to multiply and fill the earth (Daniel 2:35) with children “conformed to the image of his Son” (Romans 8:29) (see also Ephesians 1:3-5). He also commanded them to live “by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4). However, “all [mankind] have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), “for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth”(Genesis 8:21), and “to be carnally minded is death” (Romans 8:6). In response God said, “thou shalt surely die”(Genesis 2:17), and I will “cast you out of my presence: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten” (Jeremiah 23:39-40). Mankind then “consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him” (Matthew 26:4). However, Jesus remembered God’s first commandment and knew that it would not come to pass unless He was willing to suffer “for the sins of the world [mankind]” (3 Nephi 11:14), so He said, “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself” (John 10:18). God had previously commanded, “That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee” (Deuteronomy 19:10). “And also for the innocent blood that he [Jesus] shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon “(2 Kings 24:4), Jesus had the full extent of the Law answered upon His head. Said He later, “how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God [Jesus], have suffered these things for all” mankind. “Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men” (D&C 19:15-16, 18-19).

Yosef said...

Part 3
However, “the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified” (John 7:39). Following His glorious Resurrection, Peter declared, “This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear” (Acts 2:32 - 33). “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified” (1 Peter 4:11-14). “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18). Although the Condescension (DOWN), punishment/suffering (DOWN), and Atonement of Christ were on the one hand very tragic, after having received an outpouring of the Holy Ghost, mankind has been able to rejoice in it because they now see that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

Yosef said...

Part 4
Why would God have Christ be “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8) if He didn’t foreknow that the Fall would take place? Does that mean that God’s set them up to fall because He full well knew that He was putting Adam and Eve in a position to fail? The backup plan was not only carried out before Adam and Eve were ever in the Garden, but it was the plan by which God initiated physical Creation and the plan of exaltation (Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 8:29) in the first place. Did God plan for Adam and Eve to fail? This question has nothing at all to do with LDS doctrine of the Fall, and everything to do with how an incomplete understanding of God’s ways can lead to frustration and accusation.

Why would God, after “[h]aving predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love” (Ephesians 1:5, 4), send us to a place (mortality) where it is guaranteed that “all [will] have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)? Is God in conflict with Himself?

Of course not, “God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Corinthians 1:9).

Jesus said: “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father” (John 10:17-18). Why would God give Jesus this commandment when earlier He commanded: “That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee” (Deuteronomy 19:10). “And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon “(2 Kings 24:4)? Is God giving out conflicting commandments to Jesus, or does God sometimes swallow up a lesser law by implementing a higher law to fulfill HIS purposes?

Yosef said...

Part 5
By refusing to look at the Fall as a product of God’s superior wisdom, we refuse to acknowledge that it typifies the Atonement of Christ. Therefore, we accuse God of being inconsistent, as Jesus “beginning at Moses [Genesis-Deuteronomy] and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in ALL the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27, emphasis added).

Jesus said: “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:12-13). How then can we condemn Adam for obeying this very commandment as he fulfilled his role as a type and a shadow of Christ? If it is not Luciferian to rejoice in God’s superior wisdom in perfectly orchestrating the Atonement of Jesus Christ, then how is it so when we choose to look at the Fall in the same light?

The Condescension below all things was DOWNWARD as was the Fall, however, the only true rejoicing and UPWARD success is had because of the Redeeming and Sanctifying qualities of the Atonement’s power. Such teachings are not in conflict with the LDS perspective of the Fall. LDS do not rejoice in the transgression itself, but only in the fact that the Atonement of Jesus Christ could not have been carried out in a world that wasn’t fallen. No Fall, no Atonement, no fulfilling our “predestinat[ion] to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Romans 8:29). If we could have obtained oneness with God without a Fall, then Jesus would not have been “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8), and we would not need Him in order to become like God.

To put it back into the perspective of the Fall:
Adam is the Bridegroom and Eve is His Bride (Genesis 2:23-24). God commanded them to multiply and fill the earth (Genesis 1:28). He also commanded them not to partake of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or they would die (Genesis 2:17). Eve obeyed Satan and partook of the forbidden fruit (Genesis 3:1-6). In response God said, “thou shalt surely die”(Genesis 2:17), and I will cast you out of my presence (Genesis 3:23). And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten (Genesis 3:16). Eve then consulted that she might take Adam by subtilty, and offer him the fruit of death (Genesis 3:6). However, Adam remembered God’s first commandment and knew that it would not come to pass unless He was willing to suffer for the sins of the Eve, so He said, no man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself (refer to the LDS Temple Endowment). God had previously commanded that partaking of the forbidden fruit would most assuredly result in death (Genesis 2:17). Adam had the full extent of the Law answered upon his head. Said he later, how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

Yosef said...

Part 6
“And we sat together before the gate of paradise, Adam weeping with his face bent down to the earth, lay on the ground lamenting. And seven days passed by and we had nothing to eat and were consumed with great hunger, and I Eve cried with a loud voice: ‘Pity me, O Lord, My Creator; for my sake Adam suffereth thus!’ And I said to Adam: ‘Rise up! my lord, that we may seek us food; for now my spirit faileth me and my heart within me is brought low.’ Then Adam spake to me: ‘I have thoughts of killing thee, but I fear since God created thine image and thou showest penitence and criest to God; hence my heart hath not departed from thee.’ And Adam arose and we roamed throughout all lands and found nothing to eat save nettles and grass of the field. And we returned again to the gates of paradise and cried aloud and entreated: ‘Have compassion on thy creature. O Lord Creator, allow us food.’ And for fifteen days continually we entreated” (The Scrolls of Adam & Eve, 1:28-31, translated by Dr. J. J. Hurtak).

However, the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because they were not yet taught about the Atonement of Jesus Christ (Moses 5:5-11). After many years of faithfulness and following obedience to God’s prescribed method of animal sacrifice and instruction on the Atonement from an angel of God, the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam and he prophesied and rejoiced in the blessings of the Atonement of Christ. “And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will. And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed [it takes two to tango], and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters” (Moses 5:9-12).

Yosef said...

Part 7
Although Eve’s succumbing to temptation (DOWN), partaking of the forbidden fruit (DOWN), and Adam’s sacrifice (DOWN) were on the one hand very tragic, after having received an outpouring of the Holy Ghost, they were able to rejoice in it because they now see that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

Since all things were originally created in a pure form, everything evil and false are corruption of purity and truth. Even Satan’s lies are mingled with truth. Some people are of the opinion that no sect of religion contains all truth. As well, it might be said that no sect or religion contains 100% falsehood. If what has become known today as “traditional Christianity” is in more opposition to the scriptures and reconciling the types and shadows of Christ than some forms of Gnosticism and also the LDS doctrine, then it may be worthwhile to do a more thorough investigation of the legitimacy of the claims of so-called “traditional Christianity.” Although it would still be wise to seek truth and not seek falsehood in all things. For those who have yet to find a flock and a shepherd, it may be best to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” until a boneless meal can be found.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you” (1 Peter 5:10).

Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing” (Revelation 5:12).

(ps: Anonymous, I plan to go over all of this kind of stuff later with you, but based upon the truths that we have decided should define “true Christianity.” Sorry for cutting in on our study, but I thought you may find this piece interesting as well.)

Shalom
Yosef

Yosef said...

Part 7
Although Eve’s succumbing to temptation (DOWN), partaking of the forbidden fruit (DOWN), and Adam’s sacrifice (DOWN) were on the one hand very tragic, after having received an outpouring of the Holy Ghost, they were able to rejoice in it because they now see that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

Since all things were originally created in a pure form, everything evil and false are corruption of purity and truth. Even Satan’s lies are mingled with truth. Some people are of the opinion that no sect of religion contains all truth. As well, it might be said that no sect or religion contains 100% falsehood. If what has become known today as “traditional Christianity” is in more opposition to the scriptures and reconciling the types and shadows of Christ than some forms of Gnosticism and also the LDS doctrine, then it may be worthwhile to do a more thorough investigation of the legitimacy of the claims of so-called “traditional Christianity.” Although it would still be wise to seek truth and not seek falsehood in all things. For those who have yet to find a flock and a shepherd, it may be best to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” until a boneless meal can be found.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you” (1 Peter 5:10).

Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing” (Revelation 5:12).

(ps: Anonymous, I plan to go over all of this kind of stuff later with you, but based upon the truths that we have decided should define “true Christianity.” Sorry for cutting in on our study, but I thought you may find this piece interesting as well.)

Shalom
Yosef

Anonymous said...

This Doctrinal Non-sense is What makes The Fall a Glory to Lucifer and Gnosticism- It also suggest That GOD was restricted in His Powers to Simply Provide access to The Tree of Life Adam and Eve would Have Eternal Life or Exaltation Free as a Gift of Grace From GOD. What exactly was the Tree of Life Doing in the Garden of Eden- Was Adam and Eve subject to Death and Needed the Tree to Be Immortal
or did The Tree of Life Represent Exaltation?
The Tree of Life was Restricted after partaking of The Forbidden Fruit. So we know it was not Just about living forever But Eternal Exaltation a Free Gift that could not be Earned or Purchased. No Gnosticism Needed, No Secret Hand Shakes, No passwords or Special Tokens- Jesus Christ Represents The WAY the TRUTH, The LIGHT and LIFE as Did the TREE .
Gnostics are The Masonic Builders That rejected the Chief Corner Stone, They seek Building a Tower to Heaven the Work of their Own hands working their own"way" to Heaven- They as Eve are Thinking They are "gods" Enjoying the fruit of the tree of Knowledge Of EVIL and not being GOOD-
It is just too Simple and Easy-Gnostics are forever thinking they are "gods' thru their Gnosis and Reject the Tree of Life once Again and Again and Again.

This is the fallen Mormon View
"The Fall was not an accident, not an obstruction to God's plan, and not a wrong turn in the course of humanity. "The Lord…created the earth that it should be inhabited" by his children (1 Ne. 17:36), and since Adam and Eve would have had no children in their Edenic condition, the Fall was a benefit to mankind. It was part of the Father's plan, being both foreknown to him and essential to the human family. All these things were "done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things" (2 Ne. 2:24).
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam"

And this is Not a Unique or Obscure Mormon Quote
it Is Main stream Mormonism and Gnosticism-
And I feel it insult to God and if you Believe it I think you are Being Mislead

And No Never Ever Did I Hear a Rational, Logical, Spiritual defense of this Gnostic Gnotion!!!!!

Yosef said...

(I noticed in my Part 2 that I forgot to type my name in the identity. I use my son's account. He used to post here and told me about the blog. I have never set up an account of my own. Sorry for the confusion. I had previously been a little hesitant in mentioning our relation, because we do not always agree on methods of delivery. In any case, I hope I am still able to be counted as my own person, and that I or my son are not held accountable for anything the other has said. From what I read, he seems to have gotten into the middle of some very heated debating. I am no debater, nor am I that young and energetic. Sorry for any inconvenience).

Anonymous said...

Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Mark 12:24
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
John 20:9
For as yet they knew not the scripture,
Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Mormon 9:8
Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
PLEASE TAKE NOTE NOT ONE SCRIPTURE LDS OR OTHER WISE SAYS ADAM AND EVE "COULD" NOT HAVE CHILDREN BEFORE EVE PARTOOK OF THE FRUIT- REPEAT BEFORE EVE PARTOOK -
the gnostic doctrine is not in any LDS scripture and The Gnostic Doctrine is and was NOT taught in the LDS Temple- Remember not one LDS scripture say
" COULD NOT" in the Book "JESUS THE CHRIST"
TALMAGE

JESUS THE CHRIST A study of the Messiah and His Mission according to Holy Scriptures both Ancient and Modern by James E. Talmage
www.cumorah.com/etexts/jesusthechrist.txt

It should also be Mentioned that the Gnostic Doctrine was alive and well in freemasonry and has been reintroduced into Mormonism Again again again again and again, by the Likes of Joseph Fielding Smith, Joseph F Smith, An Bruce R Mc Conki
The GNOSTIC line in Mormonism. A
No the Apostles are NOT agreed and you are being tossed To and Fro-

Yosef said...

Perhaps Trinitarianism is the route you should go. They don’t believe that man can truly be conformed into God’s image. They don’t even believe that man was created in God’s image like the bible says, because to them God is some vague force while man has form. God is robbed of His Fatherhood, because to them, people are His creations and not really His children. Jesus is robbed of His divine Sonship, because to them He is really the Father and the Holy Ghost. All of the references in the bible of God saying “let us,” “in our,” and when the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost speak to each other, are taught by them to be a falsehood. They teach that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the multiple personalities of a schizophrenic ventriloquist. I don’t think you have come to know that kind of God. Why do you continue to use so-called “traditional Christianity” as a measuring stick? They are not the New Testament Church, nor are they biblical, nor are they even still in sync with their own early church fathers. “Traditional Christianity” is an inaccurate title for them. Yes they contain some truth, but so does everything else. However, you continue to use them as a measuring stick to condemn. If you would throw them into the same boat as every other school of thought and religion, you might be able to see more clearly as you seek to differentiate between truth and falsehood. Although I stand by my description of Trinitarianism, that does not mean that I am unable or unwilling to glean any useful truths from them or from anyone else. That Tree of Life aspect of freely partaking of the Grace of Jesus, that you claim is so absent from my life, has helped me to understand that it is God and Christ’s will to bring us all together, united under the Head of Jesus Christ.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:19-20).

I am nobody special. But I do enjoy the peace of God and His Christ in my life. He is teaching me how to interact with all my fellow beings, while helping me learn to extract the truths that they have. Through this exchange, we built unity with each other and with God through Christ, because of Grace and the Holy Spirit. I am still looking forward to our study together if you are still for it. I am interested to see what truths we agree on as we put together the model of “true Christianity” for our study. I never ask you to believe the way I do, only to be open to a neutral exchange without hostility. My posting on ‘Adam as a type of Christ’ was only to help David. I guess we can see if he even thinks it was helpful. I apologize if looking at Adam as a type and shadow of Christ is offensive to you. I look at all scripture as a type and shadow of Christ. Anyway, let me know if you wish for us to pick up on our study.

Shalom
Yosef

Yosef said...

Perhaps Trinitarianism is the route you should go. They don’t believe that man can truly be conformed into God’s image. They don’t even believe that man was created in God’s image like the bible says, because to them God is some vague force while man has form. God is robbed of His Fatherhood, because to them, people are His creations and not really His children. Jesus is robbed of His divine Sonship, because to them He is really the Father and the Holy Ghost. All of the references in the bible of God saying “let us,” “in our,” and when the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost speak to each other, are taught by them to be a falsehood. They teach that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the multiple personalities of a schizophrenic ventriloquist. I don’t think you have come to know that kind of God. Why do you continue to use so-called “traditional Christianity” as a measuring stick? They are not the New Testament Church, nor are they biblical, nor are they even still in sync with their own early church fathers. “Traditional Christianity” is an inaccurate title for them. Yes they contain some truth, but so does everything else. However, you continue to use them as a measuring stick to condemn. If you would throw them into the same boat as every other school of thought and religion, you might be able to see more clearly as you seek to differentiate between truth and falsehood. Although I stand by my description of Trinitarianism, that does not mean that I am unable or unwilling to glean any useful truths from them or from anyone else. That Tree of Life aspect of freely partaking of the Grace of Jesus, that you claim is so absent from my life, has helped me to understand that it is God and Christ’s will to bring us all together, united under the Head of Jesus Christ.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:19-20).

I am nobody special. But I do enjoy the peace of God and His Christ in my life. He is teaching me how to interact with all my fellow beings, while helping me learn to extract the truths that they have. Through this exchange, we built unity with each other and with God through Christ, because of Grace and the Holy Spirit. I am still looking forward to our study together if you are still for it. I am interested to see what truths we agree on as we put together the model of “true Christianity” for our study. I never ask you to believe the way I do, only to be open to a neutral exchange without hostility. My posting on ‘Adam as a type of Christ’ was only to help David. I guess we can see if he even thinks it was helpful. I apologize if looking at Adam as a type and shadow of Christ is offensive to you. I look at all scripture as a type and shadow of Christ. Anyway, let me know if you wish for us to pick up on our study.

Shalom
Yosef

Yosef said...

Perhaps Trinitarianism is the route you should go. They don’t believe that man can truly be conformed into God’s image. They don’t even believe that man was created in God’s image like the bible says, because to them God is some vague force while man has form. God is robbed of His Fatherhood, because to them, people are His creations and not really His children. Jesus is robbed of His divine Sonship, because to them He is really the Father and the Holy Ghost. All of the references in the bible of God saying “let us,” “in our,” and when the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost speak to each other, are taught by them to be a falsehood. They teach that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the multiple personalities of a schizophrenic ventriloquist. I don’t think you have come to know that kind of God. Why do you continue to use so-called “traditional Christianity” as a measuring stick? They are not the New Testament Church, nor are they biblical, nor are they even still in sync with their own early church fathers. “Traditional Christianity” is an inaccurate title for them. Yes they contain some truth, but so does everything else. However, you continue to use them as a measuring stick to condemn. If you would throw them into the same boat as every other school of thought and religion, you might be able to see more clearly as you seek to differentiate between truth and falsehood. Although I stand by my description of Trinitarianism, that does not mean that I am unable or unwilling to glean any useful truths from them or from anyone else. That Tree of Life aspect of freely partaking of the Grace of Jesus, that you claim is so absent from my life, has helped me to understand that it is God and Christ’s will to bring us all together, united under the Head of Jesus Christ.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:19-20).

I am nobody special. But I do enjoy the peace of God and His Christ in my life. He is teaching me how to interact with all my fellow beings, while helping me learn to extract the truths that they have. Through this exchange, we built unity with each other and with God through Christ, because of Grace and the Holy Spirit. I am still looking forward to our study together if you are still for it. I am interested to see what truths we agree on as we put together the model of “true Christianity” for our study. I never ask you to believe the way I do, only to be open to a neutral exchange without hostility. My posting on ‘Adam as a type of Christ’ was only to help David. I guess we can see if he even thinks it was helpful. I apologize if looking at Adam as a type and shadow of Christ is offensive to you. I look at all scripture as a type and shadow of Christ. Anyway, let me know if you wish for us to pick up on our study.

Shalom
Yosef

Yosef said...

Perhaps Trinitarianism is the route you should go. They don’t believe that man can truly be conformed into God’s image. They don’t even believe that man was created in God’s image like the bible says, because to them God is some vague force while man has form. God is robbed of His Fatherhood, because to them, people are His creations and not really His children. Jesus is robbed of His divine Sonship, because to them He is really the Father and the Holy Ghost. All of the references in the bible of God saying “let us,” “in our,” and when the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost speak to each other, are taught by them to be a falsehood. They teach that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the multiple personalities of a schizophrenic ventriloquist. I don’t think you have come to know that kind of God. Why do you continue to use so-called “traditional Christianity” as a measuring stick? They are not the New Testament Church, nor are they biblical, nor are they even still in sync with their own early church fathers. “Traditional Christianity” is an inaccurate title for them. Yes they contain some truth, but so does everything else. However, you continue to use them as a measuring stick to condemn. If you would throw them into the same boat as every other school of thought and religion, you might be able to see more clearly as you seek to differentiate between truth and falsehood. Although I stand by my description of Trinitarianism, that does not mean that I am unable or unwilling to glean any useful truths from them or from anyone else. That Tree of Life aspect of freely partaking of the Grace of Jesus, that you claim is so absent from my life, has helped me to understand that it is God and Christ’s will to bring us all together, united under the Head of Jesus Christ.

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:19-20).

I am nobody special. But I do enjoy the peace of God and His Christ in my life. He is teaching me how to interact with all my fellow beings, while helping me learn to extract the truths that they have. Through this exchange, we built unity with each other and with God through Christ, because of Grace and the Holy Spirit. I am still looking forward to our study together if you are still for it. I am interested to see what truths we agree on as we put together the model of “true Christianity” for our study. I never ask you to believe the way I do, only to be open to a neutral exchange without hostility. My posting on ‘Adam as a type of Christ’ was only to help David. I guess we can see if he even thinks it was helpful. I apologize if looking at Adam as a type and shadow of Christ is offensive to you. I look at all scripture as a type and shadow of Christ. Anyway, let me know if you wish for us to pick up on our study.

Shalom
Yosef

Anonymous said...

No we do not need to seek The Hebrew or The Greek, we only net to refer to the English on this Matter.
Please do NOT confuse Could, Would or Should They are Three very Different Words or the Words would be spelt the same and they are NOT

could   
[kood; unstressed kuhd] Show IPA
–verb
1, a pt. of can1 .–auxiliary verb
2.(used to express possibility): I wonder who that could be at the door. That couldn't be true.
3.(used to express conditional possibility or ability): You could do it if you tried.
4.(used in making polite requests): Could you open the door for me, please?
5.(used in asking for permission): Could I borrow your pen?
6.(used in offering suggestions or advice): You could write and ask for more information. You could at least have called me.
Origin:
ME coude, OE cūthe; modern -l- (from would, should) first attested 1520–30
—Can be confused:  could, should, would (see usage note at should).
SHOULD
[shood] Show IPA
–auxiliary verb
1.pt. of shall.
2.(used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3.must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4.would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
Origin: ME sholde, OE sc ( e ) olde; see shall
—Can be confused:  could, should, would (see usage note at this entry ).
—Synonyms
3. See must1 .
—Usage note
Because the main function of should in modern American English is to express duty, necessity, etc. ( You should get your flu shot before winter comes ), its use for other purposes, as to form a subjunctive, can produce ambiguity, at least initially: I should get my flu shot if I were you. Furthermore, should seems an affectation to many Americans when used in certain constructions quite common in British English: Had I been informed, I should (American would ) have called immediately. I should (American would ) really prefer a different arrangement. As with shall and will, most educated native speakers of American English do not follow the textbook rule in making a choice between should and would. See also shall.
WOULD COULD OR SHOULD ???? be careful read it Right
11And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never SHOULD have had seed, and never SHOULD have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
Should=under obligation to Act
Could= Possible
15And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he SHOULD act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was centiced by the one or the other.
Two choice Obey GOD or Obey Lucifer!!!

Please Under stand that Eve was Tricked, Adam was Not- After Eve Partook -Adam THEN made the Choice to Fulfill the First Commandment BUT Only because Eve had Partook and Only After Eve Partook.

22And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed He would not have fallen, but He would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

And just so you Know Eve would have been Kicked out of the Garden and Died, Adam would then be Alone- And even though Eve did Partake, the Fall was Administered thru Adam not Eve, but each Played their Part.

Yosef said...

Part 1
Perhaps Trinitarianism is the route you should go. They don’t believe that man can truly be conformed into God’s image. They don’t even believe that man was created in God’s image like the bible says, because to them God is some vague force while man has form. God is robbed of His Fatherhood, because to them, people are His creations and not really His children. Jesus is robbed of His divine Sonship, because to them He is really the Father and the Holy Ghost. All of the references in the bible of God saying “let us,” “in our,” and when the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost speak to each other, are taught by them to be a falsehood. They teach that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the multiple personalities of a schizophrenic ventriloquist. I don’t think you have come to know that kind of God. Why do you continue to use so-called “traditional Christianity” as a measuring stick? They are not the New Testament Church, nor are they biblical, nor are they even still in sync with their own early church fathers. “Traditional Christianity” is an inaccurate title for them. Yes they contain some truth, but so does everything else. However, you continue to use them as a measuring stick to condemn. If you would throw them into the same boat as every other school of thought and religion, you might be able to see more clearly as you seek to differentiate between truth and falsehood. Although I stand by my description of Trinitarianism, that does not mean that I am unable or unwilling to glean any useful truths from them or from anyone else. That Tree of Life aspect of freely partaking of the Grace of Jesus, that you claim is so absent from my life, has helped me to understand that it is God and Christ’s will to bring us all together, united under the Head of Jesus Christ.

Yosef said...

Part 2
“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:19-20).

I am nobody special. But I do enjoy the peace of God and His Christ in my life. He is teaching me how to interact with all my fellow beings, while helping me learn to extract the truths that they have. Through this exchange, we built unity with each other and with God through Christ, because of Grace and the Holy Spirit. I am still looking forward to our study together if you are still for it. I am interested to see what truths we agree on as we put together the model of “true Christianity” for our study. I never ask you to believe the way I do, only to be open to a neutral exchange without hostility. My posting on ‘Adam as a type of Christ’ was only to help David. I guess we can see if he even thinks it was helpful. I apologize if looking at Adam as a type and shadow of Christ is offensive to you. I look at all scripture as a type and shadow of Christ. Anyway, let me know if you wish for us to pick up on our study.

Shalom
Yosef

Anonymous said...

Should Would or Could- we only need to Consult the English on this One.
should   [shood] Show IPA
–auxiliary verb
1.pt. of shall.
2.(used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3.must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4.would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
Origin: ME sholde, OE sc ( e ) olde; see shall
—Can be confused:  could, should, would (see usage note at this entry ).
—Synonyms 3. See must1 .
could   [kood; unstressed kuhd] Show IPA
–verb1.a pt. of can1 .–auxiliary verb
2.(used to express possibility): I wonder who that could be at the door. That couldn't be true.
3.(used to express conditional possibility or ability): You could do it if you tried.
4.(used in making polite requests): Could you open the door for me, please?
5.(used in asking for permission): Could I borrow your pen?
6.(used in offering suggestions or advice): You could write and ask for more information. You could at least have called me.
Origin: ME coude, OE cūthe; modern -l- (from would, should) first attested 1520–30
—Can be confused:  could, should, would (see usage note at should).
—Usage note
See care.

Anonymous said...

Should Would or Could- we only need to Consult the English on this One.
should   [shood] Show IPA
–auxiliary verb1.pt. of shall.
2.(used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.3.must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.4.would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
Origin: ME sholde, OE sc ( e ) olde; see shall
—Can be confused:  could, should, would (see usage note at this entry ).—Synonyms 3. See must1 .
COULD 
[kood; unstressed kuhd] Show IPA–verb
1.a pt. of can1 .–auxiliary verb2.(used to express possibility): I wonder who that could be at the door. That couldn't be true.3.(used to express conditional possibility or ability): You could do it if you tried.
4.(used in making polite requests): Could you open the door for me, please?5.(used in asking for permission): Could I borrow your pen?
6.(used in offering suggestions or advice): You could write and ask for more information. You could at least have called me.Origin: ME coude, OE cūthe; modern -l- (from would, should) first attested 1520–30—Can be confused:  could, should, would (see usage note at should).
See care.

Anonymous said...

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never (should or could?) have had seed, and never (should or could?) have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Only after and because Eve partook- Adam then partook because Eve would be kicked out of the Garden and Die- Thats why Adam was Not deceived
HE THEN made the Best Choice of Bad Circumstances
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
The Fall came in of and Thru Adam- Not Eve
But both played their Part

Anonymous said...

Let not ignorance and thoughtlessness lead us into the error of assuming that the Father's foreknowledge as to what would be, under given conditions,determined that such must be.
He was given commandment and law, and was free to obey ordisobey -- with the just and inevitable condition that he should enjoy or suffer the natural results of his choice. Adam, the first man placed upon the earth in pursuance of the established plan, and Eve who was given unto him as companion and associate, indispensable to him in the appointed mission of peopling the earth, disobeyed the express commandment of God and so brought
about the "fall of man," whereby the mortal state, of which death is an essential element was inaugurated. It is not proposed to consider here at
length the doctrine of the fall; for the present argument it is sufficient to establish the fact of the momentous occurrence and its portentous
consequences. The woman was deceived, and in direct violation of counsel and commandment partook of the food that had been forbidden, as a result of which act her body became degenerate and subject to death. Adam realized the disparity that had been brought between him and his companion, and with some measure of understanding followed her course, thus becoming her partner in
bodily degeneracy. Note in this matter the words of Paul the apostle: "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Anonymous said...

The man and the woman had now become mortal; through indulgence in food unsuited to their nature and condition and against which they had been
specifically warned, and as the inevitable result of their disobeying the divine law and commandment, they became liable to the physical ailments and
bodily frailties to which mankind has since been the natural heir.
COULD
[kood; unstressed kuhd] Show IPA
–verb1.a pt. of can1 .–auxiliary verb
2.(used to express possibility): I wonder who that could be at the door. That couldn't be true.
3.(used to express conditional possibility or ability): You could do it if you tried.
SHOULD
auxiliary verb1.pt. of shall.2.(used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3.must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
4.would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.
Origin:
ME sholde, OE sc ( e ) olde; see shall
—Can be confused:  could, should, would (see usage note at this entry ).

Anonymous said...

Can it be said that the father's foreknowledge is a cause of the son's sinful life? The son, perchance, has reached his maturity; he is the master of his own destiny; a free agent unto himself.
1. God's Foreknowledge Not a Determining Cause. -- "Respecting the foreknowledge of God, let it not be said that divine omniscience is of itself a determining cause whereby events are inevitably brought to pass. He knows what each will do under
given conditions, and sees the end from the beginning. His foreknowledge is based on intelligence and reason. He foresees the future as a state which naturally and surely will be; not as one which must be because He has arbitrarily willed that it shall be." -- James E. Talmage, The Great postasy,
pp. 19-20.
2. Man Free to Choose for Himself. -- "The father of souls has endowed His children with the divine birthright of free agency; He does not and will
not control them by arbitrary force; He impels no man toward sin; He compels none to righteousness. Unto man has been given freedom to act for himself;
and, associated with this independence, is the fact of strict responsibility and the assurance of individual accountability.
"Our first parents were pure and noble, and when we pass behind the veil we shall perhaps learn something of their high estate, more than we know now. But be it known that they were pure; they were noble. It is true that they disobeyed the law of God, in eating things they were told not to eat; but who
amongst you can rise up and condemn?" -- From an address by the author at the Eighty-fourth Semiannual Conference of the Church, Oct. 6, 1913; Conference Report, pp. 118-19.
www.cumorah.com/etexts/jesusthechrist.txt

Anonymous said...

Seem all ye Mormons Like That Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil- Thinking you are Little "gods"?
You think It a Present from God for your Exaltation?
Think Again- Lets test this Gnostic Gnotion-
Beware this one is Deep and Dark
I would like to set the "snare" as some like to say of Me
So I would like to Hear all the Wonderful Blessings of That Tree Forbidden by GOD -Share with me all the Blessing of disobeying God and Obeying Lucifer!!!!

Bob said...

Anony-misled,

Are your serious? You like totally tried to slam on that dude by using material that supported his explanation of the fall. He never said anything that would cause a mentally stable person to believe that God’s foreknowledge predetermined behavior. You are delusional man! He totally centered the whole thing around Jesus Christ and the need to rely upon His grace and blood. It was so on-point with how to get eternal life through the Atonement (tree of life) and not by anything man can do (knowledge of good and evil). You are the only one who goes around judging “good and evil” and points the accusing finger, while hiding from the presence of God. You are like really sick to try to knock that guy down with bold face lies and manipulation of what he said. He never said it was better to follow Satan than God, he said it was God’s magnificence that provided the help Adam and Eve would need even before they screwed up. On top of that, he could like take every last one of your quotes and incorporate them into his explanation without any disagreement of his views. The only disagreement is your lies mingled with truth. Of all the people that I’ve read that post here, he is by far the most patient with your insane inability to comprehend anything that is put before you. Seriously, you amaze me with your stupidity in coming to the conclusions you do about what everyone writes here.

I think the most honest thing you ever posted was when you said:

“I would like to Hear all the Wonderful Blessings of That Tree Forbidden by GOD -Share with me all the Blessing of disobeying God and Obeying Lucifer!!!!”

I think you are so bitter because nobody here can give you that!

Maybe if you could learn to cut and paste from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you would be happier!

Instead of kicking your own brand of knowledge of good and evil, why don’t you ever try to promote real eternal life encouragement? You’re pathetic, and a bad liar. You need some psychiatric help, badly!

Anonymous said...

Bobby- I do not Make any Personal Attacks-
I am about the Truth-Topic by Topic-
How many Missionaries Does the LDS church Have ?-
"I was told that they were all wrong and an abomination
in His Site." What you do not like the Truth and a Little preaching? When you tell other people their church is not True are you always Preaching Jesus?
A little Preaching never Hurt anyone!!!!
“I would like to Hear all the Wonderful Blessings of That Tree Forbidden by GOD -Share with me all the Blessing of disobeying God and Obeying Lucifer!!!!”
I said what I said to you Gnostic Mormons who Love the Fall and all the "Blessings" That came of It.
Falling UP and Falling FORWARD
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as Mormons, or LDS more specifically) The early blessing of God to Adam and Eve to "multiply and replenish" (Gen 1:28) is connected to the later command of God to Adam and Eve to not partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:16-17). Therefore these two aspects of the creation account are taught as to be obligatory yet apparently contradictory commands of God. The disobedience of Eve and Adam, therefore, becomes not quite the cause for humanity's perpetual ancestral or original sin condition (were it not for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ), per se, but a "fall forward." The Fall was a separation from living communion with God, yet was a necessary transgression intended by God so that humankind may come to be and experience joy:
Mormonism believes that the Fall was necessary as part of God's plan to redeem and exalt his children. When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he gave them two seemingly contradictory commandments: First, to "multiply and replenish the earth"; and second, not to partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Mormonism emphasizes that Adam and Eve's subsequent partaking of the fruit was a "transgression," not a sin. Eve, after partaking, understood that without partaking of the fruit they could have no posterity, and hence could not fulfill the command to multiply and replenish the earth, partook of the fruit; Adam, seeing that his wife would be driven out of the Garden and he would be alone and unable to fulfill God’s command, partook as well.

Anonymous said...

Bobby Here is a Little Home Work For you.
Read the Book JESUS THE CHRIST -Mormon Apostle
www.cumorah.com/etexts/jesusthechrist.txt
Here are some Quotes from His Book, please do not Take these Quotes as personal attacks. I didn't slam anyone!!!!!
"Let not ignorance and thoughtlessness lead us into the error of assuming that the Father's foreknowledge as to what would be, under given conditions,determined that such must be.
He was given commandment and law, and was free to obey ordisobey -- with the just and inevitable condition that he should enjoy or suffer the natural results of his choice. Adam, the first man placed upon the earth in pursuance of the established plan, and Eve who was given unto him as companion and associate, indispensable to him in the appointed mission of peopling the earth, disobeyed the express commandment of God and so brought
about the "fall of man," whereby the mortal state, of which death is an essential element was inaugurated. It is not proposed to consider here at
length the doctrine of the fall; for the present argument it is sufficient to establish the fact of the momentous occurrence and its portentous
consequences. The woman was deceived, and in direct violation of counsel and commandment partook of the food that had been forbidden, as a result of which act her body became degenerate and subject to death. Adam realized the disparity that had been brought between him and his companion, and with some measure of understanding followed her course, thus becoming her partner in
bodily degeneracy. Note in this matter the words of Paul the apostle: "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
www.cumorah.com/etexts/jesusthechrist.txt

Anonymous said...

Bobby you need to Take a Deep Breath- Sorry for quoting That "Mormon Apostle" sorry you Thought His words were Mine.

So you also Think that you quoting Me, shows my Dark side I Think you need to understand that I believe it was Lucifers wish That Adam Partake of the Forbidden Fruit- And in opposition to That it was GOD's wish and Command that Adam only partake of the Tree Of Life.
I also believe that when God commanded Adam NOT to partake of the Forbidden Fruit that God DID NOT have a secret wish or desire that in fact Adam would Obey Lucifer and not Obey His commands both.
Mormon Do believe That Adams disobeying God and Being obeying Lucifer was a Fall Up and a Fall Forward.
The Following quotes From the Mormon Church
"Have class members read Genesis 1:28 (or Moses 2:28) and Genesis 2:16–17 (or Moses 3:16–17) to discover two commandments given to Adam and Eve by Heavenly Father: to multiply and replenish (fill) the earth and to refrain from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Explain that Adam and Eve could not keep both these commandments."
Note to the teacher
The decision of Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit was not a sin, as it is sometimes considered by other Christian churches. It was a transgression—an act that was formally prohibited but not inherently wrong (see Dallin H. Oaks, in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73). The Fall was necessary for us to progress toward exaltation. We have to experience mortality to become like our Father in Heaven, and Adam and Eve fulfilled their mission to make this possible. Help class members appreciate that the Fall of Adam and Eve enabled each of us to receive a body and come to earth to gain experience in choosing between good and evil.

Anonymous said...

(Teachings, 12). Lehi tells us, “Adam fell that man might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:25). Modern scripture makes it clear that it was the will of the Father, as part of his plan, that Adam and Eve transgress and thus be moved out of Eden.2 Satan thus unwittingly furthered the plan, “for he knew not the mind of God” (Moses 4:6).100% Gnostic ROOT
It was now possible for Adam and Eve to have children, which they did. Conflicted GOD
These declarations indicate that Adam and Eve saw their transgression in its proper and true perspective. They understood the necessity of the Fall and praised God for his great plan of happiness. No sorrow, regret, or shame is evident in these statements.100% Freemasonic Gnostic
1. The fall of Adam and Eve was foreseen by Heavenly Father and “was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us” (Gospel Principles, p. 33). We accepted this condition in the spirit world when we supported Heavenly Father’s plan.
2. “Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained(not obeyed Lucifer and disobeyed GOD) in the garden” (Gospel Principles, p. 33).

So here is You wonderful Mormon Quote
"Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression
How does the Fall provide opportunities for us to become like our Heavenly Father?"

He is My quote- Inviting you From You Quote
Here is Mine“I would like to Hear all the Wonderful Blessings of That Tree Forbidden by GOD -Share with me all the Blessing of disobeying God and Obeying Lucifer!!!!”
Here is Yours wonderful Mormon Quote-
Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression
How does the Fall provide opportunities for us to become like our Heavenly Father?
Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their Fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden.
Quoted from the Priesthood Manual
http://lds.about.com/od/reliefsociety/a
/manuals_rs_p.htm

Anonymous said...

Some of you seem rather comfortable About the Luciferian Gnosticism- See past the leaves and branches and look to the root-
a religious orientation advocating gnosis as the way to release a person's spiritual element; considered heresy by Christian churches-Gnosticism ( gnōsis, knowledge) refers to diverse, syncretistic religious movements in antiquity consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that the cosmos was created by an imperfect god, the demiurge with some of the supreme God's pneuma; this being is frequently ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism-A wide variety of Jewish and early Christian sects having an interest in gnosis, or divine knowledge and generally holding the belief that there is a god greater than the Demiurge, or the creator of the world-From the Greek gnosis (knowledge). A diversity of pre-Christian and early-Christian beliefs. A central tenet is the corruption of the physical world, and the ability of some to transcend it through acquisition of esoteric spiritual knowledge.
www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/about_glossary.html-A philosophical and religious system (1st to 6th century) teaching that knowledge rather than faith was the key to salvation
www.innvista.com/culture/religion/diction.htm
Other Gnostics regarded the serpent in the Garden of Eden as a heroic figure because it wanted to help humanity free itself of the chains of Yaldabaoth: After the Demiurge comes to rule over the physical world, Sophia sends a message by way of the Serpent. She gives gnosis to the humans this way, which causes the wrath of the Demiurge, who believes himself to be the sole creator of the universe and the exclusive ruler of this world. The "original sin" thus is in a gnostic context the "original enlightenment", and not an act of sin at all. Humans also learn that Seth, the third son of Adam, was introduced to the gnostic teachings by both his father and his mother, and that this knowledge has been preserved throughout creation.
It should be noted that the Gnostics perceived the Old Testament as myth, and thus subject to interpretation.
Gnostics identified the Demiurge with the God of the Old Testament, thus they rejected the Old Testament and Judaism and often celebrated those who were rejected by the Old Testament God. Some Gnostics were believed to identify the Demiurge with Satan, a belief which contributed to the suspicion with which many Christians regarded them.
http://reasons-and-opinions.blogspot.com/2007/05/unsatisfactory-mormon-documentary.html
While it did note that Mormons view God and Jesus as bodily creatures, we got no further indications of Mormon cosmology, its strongly Gnostic undertones, and its great difference with Christianity.

It is crucial to note that Mormons believe that human spirits existed with God before the creation of the world, and that man and God are co-eternal. All spirits, including Jesus and Satan, are seen as spirit children of heavenly parents. God's plan involved sending these spirits to earth in bodily form behind a veil of forgetfulness to obscure humanity's divine origin. Humans had free will, and those who obeyed God's commandments could return. Jesus, identified as the God Jehovah in the Old Testament, volunteers to go to earth to help humanity on its return journey to God, by overcoming sin and death. Lucifer objected to this plan, arguing that free will should be taken away, so that salvation could be assured. The rejection of his argument led to a war in heaven and Lucifer's expulsion.

Anonymous said...

Pleroma (Greek πλήρωμα) generally refers to the totality of divine powers. The word means fullness from πληρόω ("I fill") comparable to πλήρης which means "full",[1] and is used in Christian theological contexts: both in Gnosticism generally, and by Paul of Tarsus in Colossians 2:9 (the word is used 17 times in the NT).[2]
Gnosticism holds that the world is controlled by archons, among whom some versions of Gnosticism claim is the deity of the Old Testament, who held aspects of the human captive, either knowingly or accidentally. The heavenly pleroma is the totality of all that is regarded in our understanding of "divine". The pleroma is often referred to as the light existing "above" our world, occupied by spiritual beings who self-emanated from the pleroma. These beings are described as aeons (eternal beings) and sometimes as archons. Jesus is interpreted as an intermediary aeon who was sent, along with his counterpart Sophia, from the pleroma, with whose aid humanity can recover the lost knowledge of the divine origins of humanity and in so doing be brought back into unity with the Pleroma. The term is thus a central element of Gnostic religious cosmology.
Gnostic texts envision the pleroma as aspects of God, the eternal Divine Principle, who can only be partially understood through the pleroma. Each "aeon" (i.e. aspect of God) is given a name (sometimes several) and a female counterpart (Gnostic viewed divinity and completeness in terms of male/female unification). The Gnostic myth goes on to tell how the aeon wisdom's female counterpart Sophia separated from the Pleroma to form the demiurge, thus giving birth to the material world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleroma

Anonymous said...

This question has nothing at all to do with LDS doctrine of the Fall, and everything to do with how an incomplete understanding of God’s ways can lead to frustration and accusation."

If God gave two commandments that were in Conflict and Contradiction, God would be the Author and Finisher of SIN- Not Faith-
How could Adam ever be faithful or right with God if God was not faithful or right?

See you are saying that Adam had to choose the lesser of two Evils that God Had given Him, as though God tempted Adam with the lesser of two Evils. this is not so. James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Eve was tempted and was enticed By Lucifer, Adam was NOT. Adam was Put in a Bind Because of EVE.
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (EVE WAS)
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Gen: And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
GOD Forbids, Lucifer Tempts Eve, Eve Partakes, Adam Partakes Disobeys God- Mormons say GOD
was Wrong, Confused, and Double Minded.
My GOD is TRUTH and a GOD to TRUST and not double Minded- Yes a way was Prepared-Jesus Christ-The Tree of LIFE- was there the Whole time -
Adam and Eve were Immortal before Taking the Forbidden Fruit- The Tree of Life WAS exaltation.
Eve and Adam partook of The Wrong Tree-
Jesus Becomes the New Adam-The WAY The Truth The Light The Life-Jesus Came for Us-
I choose the Tree of Life-Not the Gnostic Tree

Anonymous said...

Bobby said
Maybe if you could learn to cut and paste from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you would be happier!"
Actually Mormonism, Freemasonry, and Gnosticism,
has already done that for You as you can see from the Above referenced Material- Like these
"Help class members appreciate that the Fall of Adam and Eve enabled each of us to receive a body and come to earth to gain experience in choosing between good and evil."
""Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression
How does the Fall provide opportunities for us to become like our Heavenly Father?"
Now we are having Church!!! Some Good preaching going on Here!!!! Getting to the TRUTH!!!!
60,000 Missionaries?
"You like totally tried to slam on that dude by using material that supported his explanation"
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”"
Joseph Smith, Jr. and his brother Hyrum became members of the newly formed Nauvoo lodge.
(Lucifer's Lodge) It appears that John C. Bennett had a particularly strong influence in the spread of Freemasonry, and soon over 1,500 Mormon men in the city of Nauvoo were practicing Masons. In 1844, the Mormon Lodges (of which there were five at that time) were ordered to cease work by the Grand Lodge,[5] although they ignored the order and continued to function as clandestine lodges until Smith's death. So do Mormons Have "Temples'
or Clandestine Lodges?
Gnosticism? Freemasonry? Mormonism? all the SAME
The Utah lodges prohibit Mormons, but Mormons prohibited Masons from holding priesthood leadership positions in the Latter-day Saint Church.
In 1984, President Spencer W. Kimball removed the prohibition against Latter-day Saints becoming Freemasons. Later that year, the Grand Lodge of Utah removed its own ban on Mormon membership

Anonymous said...

"Grand Master J.M. Orr of Utah" made this statement in 1878: "We say to the priests of the Latter-day Church, you cannot enter our lodge rooms—you surrender all to an unholy priesthood. You have heretofore sacrificed the sacred obligations of our beloved Order, and we believe you would do the same again. Stand aside; we want none of you. Such a wound as you gave Masonry in Nauvoo is not easily healed, and no Latter-day Saint is, or can become a member of our Order in this jurisdiction."
The Masons Excommunicate Mormons-www.phoenixmasonry.org/mormonisn_and_masonry.htm
Masonic Mormon Leadership
Many of the Saints were Masons, such as Joseph's brother Hyrum, Heber C. Kimball, Elijah Fordham, Newel K. Whitney, James Adams, and John C. Bennett. . . .
Prominent among these were Dr. John C. Bennett, an Ohio Mason; Heber C. Kimball, one of the first apostles and a trusted friend of both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, who had received the degrees at Victor, New York; Hyrum Smith, the prophet's older brother, who likewise was a New York Mason, and others. Of this number, too, was W. W. Phelps
"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done." On April 6 1840 the present Grand Lodge of Illinois was formed by the Mormon Patriarch-Judge and General James Adams.
An interesting side note is that the Mormon Church was founded on April 6th 1830, The Nauvoo Temple was dedicated on April 6th-Masonic Rite of Exaltation ". . . I promise and swear, that I will aid and assist a companion Royal Arch mason wherever I shall see him engaged in any difficulty so far as to extricate him from the same, whether he be RIGHT OR WRONG.—Furthermore do I promise and swear, that a companion Royal Arch mason's secrets given me in charge as such, and I knowing him to be such, shall remain as secure and inviolable in my breast as in his own, when he communicated it to me, Murder and Treason NOT excepted. . . . binding myself under the no less penalty than to have my SKULL STRUCK OFF, and my brains exposed . . ."
www.utlm.org/onlineresources/mormonkingdomvol1ch13masonicinfluence.htm
www.phoenixmasonry.org/
mormonisn_and_masonry.htm
www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/dun08.htm
www.masonicmoroni.com/
www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_history.htm
NOW THAT IS WHAT I CALL HAVING CHURCH

Anonymous said...

I wrote a book defending the Church against anti-Mormon attacks ("The Gainsayers" 1989).
Out of the Fire now in the Embers
www.angelfire.com/planet/lds/22.html

Bob said...

Anonymous is that really you???

“New Age Messiah Identified”
“A Summary Critique
DN037
CRI Statement
Troy Lawrence, author of New Age Messiah Identified (Huntington House), is exposed as a fraud. According to an article by Eric Pement in Corner­stone magazine (vol. 20, no. 95), “Troy Lawrence” — an alias for Darrick Evenson — “has written and been published as a Mormon returning from Protestantism, a New Ager on the inside track, and a Mason disproving evangelical John Ankerberg’s anti-Masonic literature. He also claims to be a Jehovah’s Witness and a believer in the Baha’i faith.”
Lawrence claimed to have been a respect­ed worker at Benjamin Creme’s Tara Center, a New Age group promoting the idea that Maitreya the Christ would soon manifest him­self to humanity. (Tara staff members, howev­er, flatly deny that he was ever employed there or was respected by anyone.) When the Christ failed to show up in 1982 as Creme had prophesied, Lawrence allegedly became disil­lusioned and converted to Christianity in 1984. He then (as the story goes) decided to conceal his conversion while stealthily gather­ing information that would help him identify the New Age Christ. The back cover of his book tells us that “writing under an assumed name, Troy Lawrence reveals to the world the true identity of Tara Center’s New Age Messiah, the man they call ‘Lord Maitreya.’”
“Lawrence’s story isn’t true.” Pement writes. “He now admits that his real name is Darrick T. Evenson. This is the same Darrick Evenson who, from 1979 to the present, has been an ardent defender of Mormonism. The pseudonym may have been necessary because many Christian countercult ministries knew of Evenson through a book he authored in 1989 — five years after his alleged Christian con­version. Entitled The Gainsayer, the book attacks Christian ministries to Mormons and is published by Horizon, a Mormon press.” Evenson also has to his credit two cassette tapes and a booklet promoting Freemasonry.
Pement points out that “in a phone conver­sation with Cornerstone on June 4, 1991, Evenson told us he was currently ‘an evangel-
ical Christian, a Mormon, a Mason, and a Jehovah’s Witness.’ We’d never heard of him claiming to be a JW before, so we asked him if he was a baptized Jehovah’s Witness. He replied that he was planning to be baptized, but because of the impending publicity, he probably wouldn’t be able to do so. And final­ly, Evenson has also told [director of the Phoenix chapter of Saints Alive in Jesus, Mike] Mistretta and Christian expert on Mormonism Sandra Tanner that he is a Baha’i as well.”
Lawrence’s facade finally cracked on April 23, 1991 when Christian radio host Al Kresta — based on information received from Constance Cumbey and others — confronted Troy with the actions of his alter ego, Darrick Evenson. “Evenson denied ever being a Mormon, claiming that Gainsayers was part of a ‘Trojan horse’ method of evangelizing Mormons without their suspecting it. When challenged, Evenson lost control and finally had to be cut off the air. Evenson had one other disastrous interview on a Denver radio station, and after that he asked Huntington House to cease all interviews and tours,” Cornerstone reports.
Elaborating on his “Trojan Horse” evangelism, Lawrence said he “infiltrates and joins false religions (Mormonism, Masonry, and the New Age) so he can later share the ‘true’ gospel in his books, which are read by mem­bers who would never read an overtly Christian book.” However, as Pement points out, not only does Lawrence make false pro­fessions (such as that Joseph Smith is God’s prophet for this dispensation), he also never presents the true gospel in any of his pro-Masonic or pro-Mormon writings.”

Yosef said...

Part 1
David,

I’ve been enjoying the little time I’ve had to read your new book. I apologize, as this time of year provides me with little opportunity to pursue many simple pleasures, such as reading. One thing most of all that I enjoy is the plainness of speech and the simplistic manner in which you lay out the complexities of both modern LDS and ancient theosophical/Kabbalistic cosmology. As time continues to escalate towards the climactic reconciliation of all things in heaven and on earth, I find it ever more beneficial to plant seeds of such a cosmological understanding in the minds of the youth. As such explanations have been so complex in the past, it has been my life’s work to modify them for a younger audience. The youth are ready and they need a clearer and more direct path today than ever before. Of what I have read of your book so far, it seems as though it will become a great contributor to this cause. Throughout our discussion of it, I plan to share with you some of the most effective ways I have found to share with younger audiences. Surprisingly, most western adults seem to favor the youthful explanation. I look forward to finishing your book and continuing to visit your blog for discussion.

I guess Anonymous felt as though it was time to expose himself. I don’t know what he was planning to accomplish. If he is who he claims to be, I found an article I believe your readers may find interesting.

“New Age Messiah Identified”
“A Summary Critique
DN037
CRI Statement
Troy Lawrence, author of New Age Messiah Identified (Huntington House), is exposed as a fraud. According to an article by Eric Pement in Corner­stone magazine (vol. 20, no. 95), “Troy Lawrence” — an alias for Darrick Evenson — “has written and been published as a Mormon returning from Protestantism, a New Ager on the inside track, and a Mason disproving evangelical John Ankerberg’s anti-Masonic literature. He also claims to be a Jehovah’s Witness and a believer in the Baha’i faith.”
Lawrence claimed to have been a respect­ed worker at Benjamin Creme’s Tara Center, a New Age group promoting the idea that Maitreya the Christ would soon manifest him­self to humanity. (Tara staff members, howev­er, flatly deny that he was ever employed there or was respected by anyone.) When the Christ failed to show up in 1982 as Creme had prophesied, Lawrence allegedly became disil­lusioned and converted to Christianity in 1984. He then (as the story goes) decided to conceal his conversion while stealthily gather­ing information that would help him identify the New Age Christ. The back cover of his book tells us that “writing under an assumed name, Troy Lawrence reveals to the world the true identity of Tara Center’s New Age Messiah, the man they call ‘Lord Maitreya.’”

Yosef said...

Part 2
“Lawrence’s story isn’t true.” Pement writes. “He now admits that his real name is Darrick T. Evenson. This is the same Darrick Evenson who, from 1979 to the present, has been an ardent defender of Mormonism. The pseudonym may have been necessary because many Christian countercult ministries knew of Evenson through a book he authored in 1989 — five years after his alleged Christian con­version. Entitled The Gainsayer, the book attacks Christian ministries to Mormons and is published by Horizon, a Mormon press.” Evenson also has to his credit two cassette tapes and a booklet promoting Freemasonry.
Pement points out that “in a phone conver­sation with Cornerstone on June 4, 1991, Evenson told us he was currently ‘an evangel-
ical Christian, a Mormon, a Mason, and a Jehovah’s Witness.’ We’d never heard of him claiming to be a JW before, so we asked him if he was a baptized Jehovah’s Witness. He replied that he was planning to be baptized, but because of the impending publicity, he probably wouldn’t be able to do so. And final­ly, Evenson has also told [director of the Phoenix chapter of Saints Alive in Jesus, Mike] Mistretta and Christian expert on Mormonism Sandra Tanner that he is a Baha’i as well.”
Lawrence’s facade finally cracked on April 23, 1991 when Christian radio host Al Kresta — based on information received from Constance Cumbey and others — confronted Troy with the actions of his alter ego, Darrick Evenson. “Evenson denied ever being a Mormon, claiming that Gainsayers was part of a ‘Trojan horse’ method of evangelizing Mormons without their suspecting it. When challenged, Evenson lost control and finally had to be cut off the air. Evenson had one other disastrous interview on a Denver radio station, and after that he asked Huntington House to cease all interviews and tours,” Cornerstone reports.
Elaborating on his “Trojan Horse” evangelism, Lawrence said he “infiltrates and joins false religions (Mormonism, Masonry, and the New Age) so he can later share the ‘true’ gospel in his books, which are read by mem­bers who would never read an overtly Christian book.” However, as Pement points out, not only does Lawrence make false pro­fessions (such as that Joseph Smith is God’s prophet for this dispensation), he also never presents the true gospel in any of his pro-Masonic or pro-Mormon writings.”

After reading this, I don’t expect anyone here to waste their time trying to reason with such a darkened and confused Anonymous.

Yosef said...

Part 2
“Lawrence’s story isn’t true.” Pement writes. “He now admits that his real name is Darrick T. Evenson. This is the same Darrick Evenson who, from 1979 to the present, has been an ardent defender of Mormonism. The pseudonym may have been necessary because many Christian countercult ministries knew of Evenson through a book he authored in 1989 — five years after his alleged Christian con­version. Entitled The Gainsayer, the book attacks Christian ministries to Mormons and is published by Horizon, a Mormon press.” Evenson also has to his credit two cassette tapes and a booklet promoting Freemasonry.
Pement points out that “in a phone conver­sation with Cornerstone on June 4, 1991, Evenson told us he was currently ‘an evangel-
ical Christian, a Mormon, a Mason, and a Jehovah’s Witness.’ We’d never heard of him claiming to be a JW before, so we asked him if he was a baptized Jehovah’s Witness. He replied that he was planning to be baptized, but because of the impending publicity, he probably wouldn’t be able to do so. And final­ly, Evenson has also told [director of the Phoenix chapter of Saints Alive in Jesus, Mike] Mistretta and Christian expert on Mormonism Sandra Tanner that he is a Baha’i as well.”
Lawrence’s facade finally cracked on April 23, 1991 when Christian radio host Al Kresta — based on information received from Constance Cumbey and others — confronted Troy with the actions of his alter ego, Darrick Evenson. “Evenson denied ever being a Mormon, claiming that Gainsayers was part of a ‘Trojan horse’ method of evangelizing Mormons without their suspecting it. When challenged, Evenson lost control and finally had to be cut off the air. Evenson had one other disastrous interview on a Denver radio station, and after that he asked Huntington House to cease all interviews and tours,” Cornerstone reports.
Elaborating on his “Trojan Horse” evangelism, Lawrence said he “infiltrates and joins false religions (Mormonism, Masonry, and the New Age) so he can later share the ‘true’ gospel in his books, which are read by mem­bers who would never read an overtly Christian book.” However, as Pement points out, not only does Lawrence make false pro­fessions (such as that Joseph Smith is God’s prophet for this dispensation), he also never presents the true gospel in any of his pro-Masonic or pro-Mormon writings.”

After reading this, I don’t expect anyone here to waste their time trying to reason with such a darkened and confused Anonymous.

Yosef said...

Part 2
“Lawrence’s story isn’t true.” Pement writes. “He now admits that his real name is Darrick T. Evenson. This is the same Darrick Evenson who, from 1979 to the present, has been an ardent defender of Mormonism. The pseudonym may have been necessary because many Christian countercult ministries knew of Evenson through a book he authored in 1989 — five years after his alleged Christian con­version. Entitled The Gainsayer, the book attacks Christian ministries to Mormons and is published by Horizon, a Mormon press.” Evenson also has to his credit two cassette tapes and a booklet promoting Freemasonry.
Pement points out that “in a phone conver­sation with Cornerstone on June 4, 1991, Evenson told us he was currently ‘an evangel-
ical Christian, a Mormon, a Mason, and a Jehovah’s Witness.’ We’d never heard of him claiming to be a JW before, so we asked him if he was a baptized Jehovah’s Witness. He replied that he was planning to be baptized, but because of the impending publicity, he probably wouldn’t be able to do so. And final­ly, Evenson has also told [director of the Phoenix chapter of Saints Alive in Jesus, Mike] Mistretta and Christian expert on Mormonism Sandra Tanner that he is a Baha’i as well.”
Lawrence’s facade finally cracked on April 23, 1991 when Christian radio host Al Kresta — based on information received from Constance Cumbey and others — confronted Troy with the actions of his alter ego, Darrick Evenson. “Evenson denied ever being a Mormon, claiming that Gainsayers was part of a ‘Trojan horse’ method of evangelizing Mormons without their suspecting it. When challenged, Evenson lost control and finally had to be cut off the air. Evenson had one other disastrous interview on a Denver radio station, and after that he asked Huntington House to cease all interviews and tours,” Cornerstone reports.
Elaborating on his “Trojan Horse” evangelism, Lawrence said he “infiltrates and joins false religions (Mormonism, Masonry, and the New Age) so he can later share the ‘true’ gospel in his books, which are read by mem­bers who would never read an overtly Christian book.” However, as Pement points out, not only does Lawrence make false pro­fessions (such as that Joseph Smith is God’s prophet for this dispensation), he also never presents the true gospel in any of his pro-Masonic or pro-Mormon writings.”

After reading this, I don’t expect anyone here to waste their time trying to reason with such a darkened and confused Anonymous.

Yosef said...

Part 2
“Lawrence’s story isn’t true.” Pement writes. “He now admits that his real name is Darrick T. Evenson. This is the same Darrick Evenson who, from 1979 to the present, has been an ardent defender of Mormonism. The pseudonym may have been necessary because many Christian countercult ministries knew of Evenson through a book he authored in 1989 — five years after his alleged Christian con­version. Entitled The Gainsayer, the book attacks Christian ministries to Mormons and is published by Horizon, a Mormon press.” Evenson also has to his credit two cassette tapes and a booklet promoting Freemasonry.
Pement points out that “in a phone conver­sation with Cornerstone on June 4, 1991, Evenson told us he was currently ‘an evangel-
ical Christian, a Mormon, a Mason, and a Jehovah’s Witness.’ We’d never heard of him claiming to be a JW before, so we asked him if he was a baptized Jehovah’s Witness. He replied that he was planning to be baptized, but because of the impending publicity, he probably wouldn’t be able to do so. And final­ly, Evenson has also told [director of the Phoenix chapter of Saints Alive in Jesus, Mike] Mistretta and Christian expert on Mormonism Sandra Tanner that he is a Baha’i as well.”

Yosef said...

Part 3
“Lawrence’s facade finally cracked on April 23, 1991 when Christian radio host Al Kresta — based on information received from Constance Cumbey and others — confronted Troy with the actions of his alter ego, Darrick Evenson. “Evenson denied ever being a Mormon, claiming that Gainsayers was part of a ‘Trojan horse’ method of evangelizing Mormons without their suspecting it. When challenged, Evenson lost control and finally had to be cut off the air. Evenson had one other disastrous interview on a Denver radio station, and after that he asked Huntington House to cease all interviews and tours,” Cornerstone reports.
Elaborating on his “Trojan Horse” evangelism, Lawrence said he “infiltrates and joins false religions (Mormonism, Masonry, and the New Age) so he can later share the ‘true’ gospel in his books, which are read by mem­bers who would never read an overtly Christian book.” However, as Pement points out, not only does Lawrence make false pro­fessions (such as that Joseph Smith is God’s prophet for this dispensation), he also never presents the true gospel in any of his pro-Masonic or pro-Mormon writings.”

After reading this, I don’t expect anyone here to waste their time trying to REASON with such a darkened and confused Anonymous.

Anonymous said...

"I wrote a book defending the Church against anti-Mormon attacks ("The Gainsayers" 1989)."
--Out of the Fire now in the Embers---
www.angelfire.com/planet/lds/22.html


"Out of the Fire now in the Embers"

My Above point is Many Ex-Mormons Jump out of The Flames into The Embers-
"I" did not write that Book - I should have put it in quotes- But I think I have said enough!!!!!!
Now I can listen to the Choir sing songs to each other.

Anonymous said...

As always The Truth has surfaced- Rather than deal with the Truth and the Facts, you would Rather Make a Personal Attack- There are Many who will review what you Had to Say about "Important" Topics
Like the
Nature of God?
The Fall?
FreeMasonry Good or Bad ?
The Truth is Out There- Mormonism is FreeMasonry that is True, but not Right- You are trapped there and if you were Trapped in Scientology I would say the Same even If I do not Know the Truth Perfectly-
I am going to Look for The Fruit of the Tree of LIFE-
While you all Do---and search for Lucifer--
"Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression
How does the Fall provide opportunities for us to become like our Heavenly Father?"
My God and your "god" are Different-
My God is not confused and says what He Means-
I shall leave you all alone for a Season- But I do pray Gods blessing to US all.

David Littlefield said...

Yosef:

Thank you for the kind words. I hope you enjoy the rest of the book. It's light reading, but I think it makes a few good points.

Since you clearly have an aptitude for such things, let me recommend my book "mormon Mysticism" to you.

DOWNLOAD PDF

or

WEB BASED(html)

David

Anonymous said...

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Lets compare Twisted Mormon Doctrine to the Above Words of Jesus Christ- Lets see if in fact Mormon doctrine Doctrine is or is not Christian Doctrine!!
D&C1:31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
D&C 3:1-4 The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.
2For God doth not awalk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his ccourse is one eternal round. Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men;
4For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be atempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man
14But every man is atempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Moses 4:30 For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.
1 Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Alma 12:22-2322Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did afall by the partaking of the forbidden bfruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a clost and fallen people.
23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?
10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12Behold, he created Adam, and by aAdam came the bfall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the credemption of man.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Anonymous said...

Alma 42:5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
In Latter Days the Saints were taught FreeMasonry
and Jewish Gnosticism Qabalah (no difference) a downfall
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Dallin H. Oaks, in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73). The Fall was necessary for us to progress toward exaltation. We have to experience mortality to become like our Father in Heaven, and Adam and Eve fulfilled their mission to make this possible. Help class members appreciate that the Fall of Adam and Eve enabled each of us to receive a body and come to earth to gain experience in choosing between good and evil.
Mormonism believes that the Fall was necessary as part of God's plan to redeem and exalt his children. When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he gave them two seemingly contradictory commandments: First, to "multiply and replenish the earth"; and second, not to partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Mormonism emphasizes that Adam and Eve's subsequent partaking of the fruit was a "transgression," not a sin. Eve, after partaking, understood that without partaking of the fruit they could have no posterity, and hence could not fulfill the command to multiply and replenish the earth, partook of the fruit; Adam, seeing that his wife would be driven out of the Garden and he would be alone and unable to fulfill God’s command, partook as well.
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Have class members read Genesis 1:28 (or Moses 2:28) and Genesis 2:16–17 (or Moses 3:16–17) to discover two commandments given to Adam and Eve by Heavenly Father: to multiply and replenish (fill) the earth and to refrain from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Explain that Adam and Eve could not keep both these commandments."
YOU MORMONS are intent on saying That GOD's own word was against his Own will. That somehow God really wished that Adam would obey Lucifer so God could bring about the Plan of Life thru an act of Death (Obey Lucifer, Disobey God) Mormons see Lucifer as a Part of their Plan of Life and Light- They see The "Fall" not as a Sin but some Gnostic Gift from Lucifer In fact not a Fall Down, but a Step Forward and a Step UP. All of these Gnostic Gnotions are the Gnostic Luciferian Doctrine. Because you say your
"god" gave two commands that were in conflict you gave your "god" a Forked Tongue like a Serpent' Like a Snake, Of corse following Lucifer is not a Sin but a
"godly" act of Your "god" . YES you have received something Secret but not Sacred.
Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Anonymous said...

Loving Lucifer the Light Bringer The Liar from The Beginning The Murderer - Mysticism the Mysticism is the Hidden esoteric Secret Special gnowlwdge Hidding like a Sneaky Snake behind the Tree.
Lets thank "god' for Lucifer's Temptations and our acts of disobeying-
Moses 5:11 because of my transgression (obeying Lucifer and Disobeying God) my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression
(LUCIFER) we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the OBEDIENT?????. OBEDIENT To Lucifer or to "GOD"??????

Anonymous said...

But we must note the standard tactic of discrediting anyone who dares to call the accepted theories into question. Shifting the focus away from the issues and "personalising" the debate is a highly effective strategy--one which is often used by politicians who feel insecure about their positions.

Hey you all, I see you all is in that big and spacious Building. Did you think it was Fun attacking the wrong "person" I am the Most imperfect person? Okay- Yet I would share This if you were a J.W. or a Scientologist. I could show you What is Up and What is Down even if I were LOST-
I could be a Big Sinner- As I said before it is About the TRUTH - Death is always a Moment Away - but the Truth never Dies

Yosef said...

Part 1
Things That Anti-Mormon Predators Do Not Want Their LDS Targets to Know

1.It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to turn their LDS targets away from the revelations that God has already given them.

2. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to stop their LDS targets from continuing in the revelations that God is now giving them.

3. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to prevent their LDS targets from gaining any future benefit from the revelations that God will give them.

4. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to carefully lead their LDS targets into a lifestyle that causes them to revert back unto relying upon their own genius for success, while gradually diminishing all spiritual influence from God, and eventually denying the Holy Ghost.

5.It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to have their LDS targets believe that they are being invited to focus on TRUTH and FACTS. The TRUTH is that Jesus Atonement allows Him to “baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matthew 3:11) while you are yet in mortality, so that His baptism can become “a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (John 4:14). This has always been Jesus’ intent, since He was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8). He has done this to fulfill His role in the God’s plan to help the Father’s children become “conformed to the image of his Son” (Romans 8:29), so that you can become eternally “perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). Meaning thus, that through Christ’s Atonement and by the Gift of the Holy Ghost that it offers you, you can gain eternal life. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me [Jesus], and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:3, 21). It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to prevent their LDS targets from succeeding in this path. The anti-Mormon predators know that the Restored Gospel offers mankind many gateways to initiate and magnify such correspondences with God through Christ and the Holy Ghost, and it is their intent to turn their LDS target from success therein unto a life of obsession over menial nuances. Jesus rebuked such likeminded individuals in His day by saying: “woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in” (Matthew 23:13).

Yosef said...

Part2
6.Anti-Mormon predators pretend to invite their LDS targets to scrutinize TRUTH, FACTS, and IMPORTANT TOPICS, but they never invite anyone to delve into a scrutinizing study of the most important TRUTH—HOW TO APPLY THE FULLNESS OF WHAT THE ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST OFFERS. Anti-Mormon predators accuse their LDS targets of “ignoring any fact or truth they simply do not wish to believe,” in hopes of luring them away from the truth and facts that God is establishing in their lives via personal revelation. Anti-Mormon predators claim that they “love Mormons,” but in fact are using any conniving means necessary to oppose the work of God and Christ in the lives of their LDS targets.

7.Anti-Mormon predators accuse their LDS targets of “shifting the focus away from the issues and personalizing the debate,” when in fact it is their goal to shift their LDS target’s focus away from continual growth in revelatory experiences with God unto debating/contention over physical evidences. As hypocrites, anti-Mormon predators make their attack personal, because they are not only seeking to destroy the LDS’ progress with God, but they are attacking God by attempting to cut His children off from their lifestyle of frequent contact and growth with Him. In their predatory attempts, anti-Mormons are in open opposition to the purposes of God and the mission and Atonement of Jesus Christ. This is quite personal to God and Christ, because “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light” (John 3:16-19). It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to have their LDS targets stop believing in the light and revelations that God has given them because of their faith in the name of Jesus Christ unto relying solely upon the conclusions of a darkened mind (one that has turned from God). Anti-Mormon predators continue to make their attacks personal, because as they strive to convince their LDS targets to consider questioning the light and revelations of God in their lives, they are attacking the success of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which was very personally suffered for every person born into mortality. Anti-Mormon predators continue to make their attacks personal, because as they strive to convince their LDS targets to turn altogether from the light and revelations of God, they are attempting to lead their LDS targets unto eventually denying the Holy Ghost. The anti-Mormon probably gets frustrated when their LDS targets take things personal, because the anti-Mormon is openly fighting against the success of the Godhead with no personal regard for any mortal who gets destroyed along the way.

Yosef said...

Part 3
8.It is the anti-Mormon predators attempt to snare their LDS targets by accusing them of “discrediting anyone who dares to call the accepted [LDS] theories into question.” Again, the anti-Mormon cunningly attempts to convince their LDS targets to shift the focus away from their revelatory realities by considering their actual experience with God as a “theory” to be used for argument’s sake. The anti-Mormon predators attempt to compound their tactics by telling their LDS targets that they have struggled for years to find “evidence” that the Book of Mormon, LDS Church, and Joseph Smith were TRUE, but have found the opposite. This common anti-Mormon technique is another attempt to convince their LDS targets to cast aside their God-given revelatory experiences in favor of “secular evidence.” Such techniques seem to offer the anti-Mormon the continual upper hand, because no matter how hard they try, the LDS target can never provide sufficient secular evidence to prove the truths that God has revealed to them. The more occupied the LDS target becomes in searching for such secular evidence, the less occupied they become in their efforts to become sealed up unto God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Ghost. The “secular evidence” snare is quite a successful “red herring” in the hands of anti-Mormons. It was not “secular evidence” that converted the LDS target to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ or helped them continue in their path to eternal life. Such evidence will never convince an anti-Mormon or anyone else of God’s reality and fullness. If an anti-Mormon has truly searched for many years to find “secular evidence” that could adequately replace the revelations of God in proving that the Restored Gospel is legit, they have wasted all that time in pursuit of something that could not be obtained. It is very much an inspired counsel to “dismiss, ignore, and turn away from anything anti-Mormon without giving it a second thought,” because anti-Mormon tactics are anti-God and anti-Christ. If the anti-Mormon predator will not seek and obtain the revelations of God, it is wise for their LDS targets not to leave the upward pull of God through Christ via revelation unto the downward pull of a darkened mind devoid of God’s manifestations to wallow in secular debates/contention.

Yosef said...

Part 4
9.It is the anti-Mormon predators attempt to cause their LDS targets to become “ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth…For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith”(Romans 1:16-17). Meaning thus, that the anti-Mormon predator attempts to convince their LDS target that relying upon the power of revelation is not sufficient against well prepared secular information. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to have their LDS target get so caught up in the pursuit of that next piece of “secular evidence” that might work, so that debating, religious competition, and the hunt to win converts by secular means will become their treasure and eventual reward. Such a drive can never replace the path of eternal life.

10.It is the anti-Mormon predators attempt to lead their LDS targets into being embarrassed by the fact that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church on earth. As the anti-Mormon predator carefully submerses their LDS target into the world of “secular evidence,” it becomes apparent that there are many flaws with LDS people and many good things about other churches, religions and people who are active in them. This anti-Mormon technique is meant once again to take their LDS target’s focus off of revelatory experience in favor of temporal judgement. Jesus warned, “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). There are many righteous people and good things associated with other churches and religions, however, the righteous judgement would be to do all we can to receive the revelations and manifestations of God as often as possible. The LDS should never be embarrassed by the fact that Restored Gospel is the true and full program of God to offer such experiences. Just because the Restored Gospel is God’s true and full program, it does not mean that any of His children are any less important or any less desired by God to obtain His fullness. By more fully embracing such truths, the LDS would have more divine insight when targeted by anti-Mormon predators and when learning to bind themselves through Christ to people of other faiths.

11.The Devil knows that there are certain key things associated with the Restored Gospel that act as gateways to personal revelation and that can be used to promote ever increasing revelatory experiences with God. Lucifer employs his anti-Mormon predators to craftily focus on turning the LDS targets from their use of such things to their eventual hatred of them.

Anonymous said...

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

TALK TALK TALK .........................

I have kept all of my issues focused- I have always quoted the Scriptures- I Invite you to Just Tell me Exactly where I Have Lied- If I have misrepresented our differences - Or misquoted "Mormon" Doctrine
please let me Know- You gave a Longggg winded speech about anti-Mormons in general instead of Defending the "Truth"- I tell you and quote to you from all of the LDS scriptures to give you my perspective - I am One lone person, not a group, or an association- You have the position of Numbers and Tradition on your side, I am against the "grain"
My issues have been Laid out
The Fall
The Temple and Freemasonry
There are other issues that are not as Important
the Mormon version of the fall reduces God to an Imperfect God- and I am convinced that Freemasonry is of Lucifer and that some of those things That are in the Mormon Temple are Luciferian. It is worthy to note that an apparent struggle was going on in the early Latter Days of the Saints- That struggle was if the "new" creation of the Mormon Church would be faith Based or Gnostic,
That is why the are many contradictions in Mormonism-

The One clear difference Between "Truth" and Mormons is This-
Did God give Two commands That were in conflict with each Other- If so that would Make God a Liar and the Author and finisher of SIN-Not FAITH or Hope-

Next Issue

Anonymous said...

Alma 5: 25
25 except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil. ( REPENT OF THIS SIN)
Mormons and Freemasons Make God a Liar from the beginning- Do you understand That?
FreeMasons Do NOT Deny Being of The Gnostic Lodge of Tubal Cain- And The early Mormon Leaders Were F&AM and Latter Became Clandestine Temple/Masons.
Masonry and the Mormon Temple
Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, John C. Bennett, Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith, Sr.[The Joseph Smith family] was a Masonic family which lived by and practiced the estimable and admirable tenets of Freemasonry. The father, Joseph Smith, Sr. Were all
FreeMason And Swore Bloody Death Oath to That
LUCIFERIAN RELIGION Not to share or Expose the
Sign, Grips, Tokens, Passwords,OATHS AND COVENANTS of Masonry including the Oaths of Secrecy and Death Penalties.
Ether 8: 25 (Talking About the Freemasons)
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
-Are you a Master Mason" "I am—try me, prove me—disprove me if you can."What is that pass-word?" Ans. "Tubal Cain."Furthermore do I promise and swear that if any part of my solemn oath or obligation be omitted at this time, that I will hold myself amenable thereto whenever informed. To all which I do most sincerely promise and swear, with a fixed and steady purpose of mind in me to keep and perform the same, binding myself under no less penalty than to have my body severed in two in the midst, and divided to the north and south, my bowels burnt to ashes in the center, and the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven, that there might not the least track or trace of remembrance remain among men. or Masons, of so vile and perjured a wretch as I should be, were I ever to prove willfully guilty of violating any part of this my solemn oath or obligation of a Master Mason. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the duo, performance of the same.Furthermore do I promise and swear that a Master Mason's secrets, given to me in charge as such, and I knowing them to be such, shall remain as secure and inviolable in my breast as in his own, when communicated to me, murder and treason excepted; and they left to my own election.
NOTE in the "7TH" Royal Arch Degree or the Right of EXALTATION "Murder and Treason" are removed from the Oath and Covenant!!!!! of Freemasonry
Our (Good?) Mormon Founders were Great Masons!
I Hope I am on the right path are you??????

Anonymous said...

NOW you say you are for TRUTH-
Here is the Masonic Oath- That were broken By the MORMON leaders- The Mormons Borrowed More than
70% From the Masons and Made it Part of Their Clandestine Freemasonry (Mormon Temples)
Bro Reed Said--
"There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons initially, just a little over one month after he became a Mason, had an immediate inspiration from Masonry.
I, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other leaders of my own free will and accord, in presence of Almighty God and this worshipful lodge of Free and Accepted Masons, dedicated to God, and held forth to the holy order of St. John, do hereby and hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear that I will always hail, ever conceal and never reveal any part or parts, art or arts, point or points of the secret arts and mysteries of ancient Freemasonry which I have received, am about to receive, or may hereafter be instructed in, to any person or persons in the known world, except it be to a true and lawful brother Mason, or within the body of a just and lawfully constituted lodge of such; and not unto him, nor unto them whom I shall hear so to be, but unto him and them only whom I shall find so to be after strict trial and due examination, or lawful information. Furthermore, do I promise and swear that I will not write, print, stamp, stain, hew, cut, carve, indent, paint, or engrave it on any thing movable or immovable, under the whole canopy of heaven, whereby or whereon the least letter, figure, character, mark, stain, shadow, or resemblance of the same may become legible or intelligible to myself or any other person in the known world, whereby the secrets of Masonry may be unlawfully obtained through my unworthiness. To all of which I do most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without the least equivocation, mental reservation, or self evasion of mind in me
p. 22 whatever; binding myself under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea at low water-mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-hours; so help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same."
www.utlm.org/onlinebooks
/captmorgansfreemasonry2.htm

Anonymous said...

I, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other leaders of my own free will and accord, in presence of Almighty God and this worshipful lodge of Free and Accepted Masons, dedicated to God, and held forth to the holy order of St. John, do hereby and hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear that I will always hail, ever conceal and never reveal any part or parts, art or arts, point or points of the secret arts and mysteries of ancient Freemasonry which I have received, am about to receive, or may hereafter be instructed in, to any person or persons in the known world, except it be to a true and lawful brother Mason, or within the body of a just and lawfully constituted lodge of such; and not unto him, nor unto them whom I shall hear so to be, but unto him and them only whom I shall find so to be after strict trial and due examination, or lawful information. Furthermore, do I promise and swear that I will not write, print, stamp, stain, hew, cut, carve, indent, paint, or engrave it on any thing movable or immovable, under the whole canopy of heaven, whereby or whereon the least letter, figure, character, mark, stain, shadow, or resemblance of the same may become legible or intelligible to myself or any other person in the known world, whereby the secrets of Masonry may be unlawfully obtained through my unworthiness. To all of which I do most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without the least equivocation, mental reservation, or self evasion of mind in me
p. 22 whatever; binding myself under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea at low water-mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-hours; so help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same."
www.utlm.org/onlinebooks
/captmorgansfreemasonry2.htm
WAS THAT HOLINESS TO THE LORD?

Anonymous said...

We say to the priests of the Latter-day Church, you cannot enter our lodge rooms—you surrender all to an unholy priesthood. You have heretofore sacrificed the sacred obligations of our beloved Order, and we believe you would do the same again. Stand aside; we want none of you. Such a wound as you gave Masonry in Nauvoo is not easily healed, and no Latter-day Saint is, or can become a member of our Order in this jurisdiction."
"Grand Master J.M. Orr of Utah" made this ABOVE statement in 1878
Bro Reed Said--
"There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons initially, just a little over one month after he became a Mason
http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Reed_C._Durham_on_1974_talk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_C._Durham
www.utlm.org/onlineresources/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm

MORMONS WERE EXCOMMUNICATED FORM FREEMASONRY AND CONTINUE AS CLANDESTINE
TEMPLE/LODGES OF LUCIFER AND GNOSTICISM
The Masons Excommunicate the Mormons-
But Lucifer found a new home

Anonymous said...

Mormonism Starts on the Idea that all The Other Churches are False as Declared by GOD-
So Go straight at it, and do not be offended when the FalseHoods of Mormonism are Exposed-
Sorry That Joseph Smith Joined the Freemasons
That Religion of LUCIFER-
Joseph Smith was commanded NOT to join any Religion-But He became a MASTER MASON of the TOWER BUILDERS-He Joined the Freemasons
Mormons Got Trapped in Lucifer's Flaxen Cord and Cable TOW. The is no Excuse for" THEE PROPHET OF PROPHETS" for joining Lucifer's Cult-
And Joseph Smith Dies A Freemason-
But before he Died with a Gun in His Hand Killing Two People and Wounding at least One other- He
Embraced Lucifer into Mormon Temple Worship-
So as a Cover-UP, instead of Repenting of Freemasonry- The Saints also Embrace Lucifer at the Points of the Pentagram- Like Stars falling from Heaven-"Mormon use of Masonic symbols has also been publicly acknowledged. Mormons were hardly discreet in their depictions of symbols long associated with Freemasonry...including the square, the compass, the sun, moon, and stars, the beehive, the all-seeing eye, ritualistic hand grips, two interlaced triangles forming a six-pointed star...and a number of other Masonic symbols on endowment houses, temples, cooperatives, grave markers, tabernacles, church meetinghouses, newspaper mastheads, hotels, residences, money, logos, and seals." ("Similarity of Priesthood in Masonry": The Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism, by Michael W. Homer, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol.27, no.3, Fall 1994, p.73)
www.utlm.org/onlineresources
/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm
29And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
30And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret. 31And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan/(Mason), and he gloried in his wickedness.
2 Nephi 26:22 And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.-

OKAY here is you Invitation to Just Repent and Escape Mormonism - And Find The Real GOD
who is Not a Liar From the Beginning

Anonymous said...

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.1 Corinthians 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Galatians 3:16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.John 18:20Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.Mark 11:15
¶And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;Jeremiah 7:4Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; abelieve it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Anonymous said...

Romans 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.Romans 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Hebrews 10:16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;Hebrews 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, awritten not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb. D&C130:3 (John 14:23)—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.1Beloved, believe not every aspirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
John 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will alove him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Ephesians 3:17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Anonymous said...

Eph 9:14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;15Having aabolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Jesus Christ is The Tree of Life-The WAY The TRUTH The Light and Life- He can Make us Free of and Free from Sin-The First Epistle General of John 1-4
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Alma 34:36 in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
PLEASE quit trying to Make GOD a LIAR from the Beginning and Quit siding with Lucifer-
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding ariches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by agrace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 3:23For all have asinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith cwithout the deeds of the law.
Jesus Christ Fulfilled The Law-your Freemasonic Temples will NOT SAVE YOU

Yosef said...

Part 1
Things That Anti-Mormon Predators Do Not Want Their LDS Targets to Know Part II: Why Specific Issues Are Selected As Targets By Satan and His Army of Anti-Mormon Servants

The Devil knows that there are certain key things associated with the Restored Gospel that act as gateways to personal revelation and that can be continually used to promote ever-increasing revelatory experiences between God and His children. Lucifer employs his anti-Mormon predators to craftily focus on turning the LDS targets from their use of such things to their eventual hatred of them. Thus it becomes the anti-Mormon predator’s goal to turn disciples of God and Christ into bitter enemies of the work and glory of God. It is the most effective aspects of the Restored Gospel that anti-Mormon predators always attack. These specific areas are very strategically targeted at various angles, because Satan is very adamant about transforming God’s most effective tools into weapons against Him. The most common areas of focus that Satan uses to attack the LDS target through the anti-Mormon predators are:
The nature of God and His purposes and procedures in working with mankind
Church leadership
The Book of Mormon
The Temple
The Priesthood
Tithing and Offerings
Satan intentionally has his servants target these areas because he knows that if he can convince the LDS target into replacing the resultant revelatory experience with limited mortal secular skepticism, then he will be successful. Satan’s success lies in robbing the LDS target and God of the joy of having any semblance of an intimate, ever-increasing relationship via personal revelation through this specific gateway environment. In doing so, Satan attempts to deprive God of His goal with His children, prevents Jesus’ Atonement from being used for its ultimate purpose, and prevents the Holy Ghost from accomplishing the full measure of its role.

Yosef said...

Part 2
On a side note, there are several signs by which an anti-Mormon servant of the Devil can be detected.
First, they do not promote any real methods of obtaining an ever-increasing relationship with God via the revelations of the Holy Ghost that comes through the Grace and Mercy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Second, they seek to turn all of those who have come to benefit from such a relationship with God unto replacing it with obsession over secular nuances and faultfinding.
Third, they are devoid of the natural consequences of having an intimate relationship with God and demand the attention of others like neglected children who act out. This is because they have chosen Satan to be their father and he cannot provide the pure and perfect love or fulfilling growth that God and Jesus can provide.
Sadly, those who have become anti-Mormon servants of the Devil are just as much a victim of predatory attacks as those whom they now target.

12. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to rob their LDS targets of past, current, and future revelatory experience surrounding the nature of God and His purposes and procedures in working with mankind, when they turn the focus from God’s revelations unto secular nuances. Satan has already been successful in convincing the majority of the well-intended “Christian” world to worship a false image of God, one created in Satan’s image and one that does not commune with his children in a literal sense. By doing so, Satan has robbed them of the compounding benefits of a true communal relationship with the Real God. God the Father, the Savior Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings within the Godhead. This is biblical truth has been replaced in most of the world, by Satan’s attempt to overcome God’s success in helping His children grow into a perfect knowledge and oneness with Him. In his attack on God’s success, Lucifer has attempted to put himself in the stead of the Godhead, to divert God’s recipients to something other than God. In his attempt to replace God the Father and the reality that mankind can become one with the Him, Lucifer has said, “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:13-14).

Yosef said...

Part 3
In his attempts to replace the Savior Jesus Christ and the benefits of the Atonement in the lives of mankind, Lucifer has declared, “I am the Only Begotten, worship me” (Moses 1:19). As well, Satan seeks to replace the benefits of the Holy Ghost in the lives of mankind by “transform[ing] into an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14). Satan’s attempt to replace the Godhead with himself as a three-in-one god who does not truly commune with mankind, is aimed to rob God of success and prevents mankind from ever benefiting from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. One of his best concealment techniques is to convince mankind that it is impossible and unnecessary to grow in an actual relationship with God unto oneness and fullness. Remember that Jesus’ Atonement allows Him to “baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matthew 3:11) while you are yet in mortality, so that His baptism can become “a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (John 4:14). This has always been Jesus’ intent, since He was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8). He has done this to fulfill His role in the God’s plan to help the Father’s children become “conformed to the image of his Son” (Romans 8:29), so that you can become eternally “perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). Meaning thus, that through Christ’s Atonement and by the Gift of the Holy Ghost that it offers you, you can gain eternal life. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me [Jesus], and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:3, 21).

Satan’s knows that if mankind will follow his false image of God, that they can never accomplish God’s purposes because they will never feel the need to. Satan continues to lead many LDS into joining his ranks, and has convinced them to replace an ever-increasing relationship with the Godhead with secular worship. Many of his victims have come to despise the True God and turn to the Trinitarian false god, and sadly become lost “sheep having no shepherd” (Matthew 9:36). Lucifer uses their misery and depravity of the love of God to fuel the fierceness in which they attack true believers. Thus he creates anti-God, anti-Christ, and anti-Mormon servants by turning mankind from a revelatory relationship with God through Christ and the Holy Ghost. It becomes his interest to target the most effective areas of God’s success with mankind.

Yosef said...

Part 4
13. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to rob their LDS targets of past, current, and future revelatory experience surrounding Church leadership when they turn the focus from God’s revelations unto secular nuances. From a secular perspective God’s prophets have always exhibited questionable behavior. Although it is not my purpose to excuse deliberate flaws because others are flawed, it is nonetheless a fact that “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Even though this is the case, God has called and worked through prophets for thousands of years regardless. Although Noah was a drunk, Abraham lied twice about Sarah not being his wife and took a concubine to try to fulfill the purpose of God based upon a mortal’s advice, Jacob lied to his father to receive the birthright blessing with Rebecca’s help, Moses murdered an Egyptian, Elijah killed 450 priests of another faith, Elisha caused that 42 children be devoured by 2 bears for mocking him, and so forth, it is not a scrutinizing study of these men’s behavior that allows one to know if they were truly prophets of God. What would have happened if Ananias would have turned from the revelations of God to follow after his own conclusions of Saul from Tarsus in Acts 9:10-18)? Only revelation can allow anyone to know if something is truly of God. However, it is not the LDS’ blind faith in following these leaders that is their benefit from having them. In his book "To Draw Closer to God," President (then Elder) Henry B. Eyring teaches that LDS can offer silent prayers asking God that they might hear His voice through the words of His servants. He also teaches that they have materials ready to write down whatever He may give them (even if it does not seem to go along with the speaker’s message per se). I have personally tried this at Church and at home with audio/video talks, scriptures, music etc. It takes a little while to grow into, but the fruit is beyond description. Every time I engage in such a practice, I always seem to have to wrestle with God to really feel the fruits of it. This means really, that I wrestle with my lack of faith, lack of humility, and lack of the ability to accomplish anything with God without the help of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost. I cannot just take those things at will, but have learned over time to plead/wrestle with God until I can become ready to truly commune with Him.

Yosef said...

Part 5
Expressing my desires to want to want Him and to really want to commune with Him on His terms really helps. Such a practice has really helped me to come face to face with how much I really do want God and how much I need His help to want Him. Such a practice can help us begin to love God more than all His holy things as well as learn to be partakers of the power of His presence with them. By attempting to ensnare their LDS targets unto a scrutinizing study of the personal flaws of Church leaders, anti-Mormons are seeking to turn them from their initial testimony of Church leaders and prevent them from having such sweet experiences with God through His servants. Church leaders act as guides when LDS are not yet in a position to be safely guided by God in their personal life, later they become a reference through which LDS may explain their own knowledge of God in a common way. Again, by attempting to turn the focus from continuing revelatory experiences unto focusing on “fault finding,” the anti-Mormon predator seeks to prevent their LDS targets from using Church leaders to enter more fully into the presence of God by encouraging them to despise and eventually hate said leaders.

President David O. McKay put things in perspective when he taught: “In our worship there are two elements: One is spiritual communication arising from our own meditation; the other, instruction from others, particularly from those who have authority to guide and instruct us. Of the two, the more profitable introspectively is the meditation…Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord…Churches are dedicated and set apart as houses of worship. This means, of course, that all who enter do so, or at least pretend to do so, with an intent to get nearer the presence of the Lord than they can in the street or amidst the worries of a workaday life. In other words, we go to the Lord’s house to meet him and to commune with him in spirit…There are two purposes for which each chapel is constructed: first, that it might be the place where all may be trained in the ways of God, and second, that in it all might glorify our Father in heaven, who asks for nothing more of his children than that they might be men and women of such noble character as to come back into his presence…When you enter a church building, you are coming into the presence of our Father in heaven; and that thought should be sufficient incentive for you to prepare your hearts, your minds, and even your attire, that you might appropriately and properly sit in his presence…The greatest comfort in this life is the assurance of having close relationship with God…The sacrament period should be a factor in awakening this sense of relationship…there is another blessing, and that is a sense of close relationship with the Lord. There is an opportunity to commune with oneself and to commune with the Lord. We meet in the house that is dedicated to him; we have turned it over to him; we call it his house. Well, you may rest assured that he will be there to inspire us if we come in proper attune to meet him.

Yosef said...

Part 6
“We are not prepared to meet him if we bring into that room our thoughts regarding our business affairs, and especially if we bring into the house of worship feelings of hatred toward our neighbor, or enmity and jealousy towards the Authorities of the Church. Most certainly no individual can hope to come into communion with the Father if that individual entertain any such feelings. They are so foreign to worship, and so foreign, particularly, to the partaking of the sacrament…Let the sacrament hour be one experience of the day in which the worshiper tries at least to realize within himself that it is possible for him to commune with his God…Great events have happened in this Church because of such communion, because of the responsiveness of the soul to the inspiration of the Almighty. I know it is real. President Wilford Woodruff had that gift to a great extent. He could respond; he knew the “still small voice” to which some are still strangers. You will find that when these most inspirational moments come to you that you are alone with yourself and your God…I repeat, the greatest comfort that can come to us in this life is to sense the realization of communion with God… When you stop to consider the matter, you realize that there is nothing during the administration of the sacrament of an extraneous nature so important as remembering our Lord and Savior, nothing so worthy of attention as considering the value of the promise we are making. Why should anything distract us? Is there anything more sublime? We are witnessing there, in the presence of one another, and before him, our Father, that we are willing to take upon ourselves the name of Christ, that we will always remember him, always, that we will keep his commandments that he has given us. Can you, can anybody living, who thinks for a moment, place before us anything which is more sacred or more far-reaching in our lives? If we partake of it mechanically, we are not honest, or let us say, we are permitting our thoughts to be distracted from a very sacred ordinance…Let us make that sacrament hour one of the most impressive means of coming in contact with God’s spirit. Let the Holy Ghost, to which we are entitled, lead us into his presence, and may we sense that nearness, and have a prayer offered in our hearts which he will hear (David O. McKay, Teachings of the Presidents of the Church manual, chapter 4).

Satan knows these truths and seeks to do all he can to prevent any success therein. LDS targets are ridiculed for their hymn “Praise to the man.” Satan employs his anti-Mormon servants to do this because LDS have come to benefit personally from such experience and have developed “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah.” The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God…I want you all to know him, and to be familiar with him” (Joseph Smith, TPJS, p. 345). The LDS people want to experience the fulfillment of such blessings in their lives and the lives of their family members. By convincing LDS targets to bring ill feelings of skepticism about Church leaders into Church meetings, Satan is seeking to rob the LDS target and God of the joy of having any semblance of an intimate, ever-increasing relationship via personal revelation through this specific gateway environment.

Yosef said...

Part 7
13.It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to rob their LDS targets of past, current, and future revelatory experience surrounding the Book of Mormon when they turn the focus from God’s revelations unto secular nuances. Many of the LDS targets have received a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is of God and may continue to receive greater spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon if their faith in God is sure. Elder Richard G. Scott declared, “I bear witness that it [the Book of Mormon] can become a personal ‘Urim and Thummim’ in your life” (Richard G. Scott, “The Power of the Book of Mormon in My Life,” Ensign, Oct. 1984, 7). Although we may never come to know exactly how the Prophet Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, we can be sure of two things. First, we can read the actual text and “by the gift and power of God [gain] the interpretation thereof” as dealing with the literal text. Secondly, “by the gift and power of God [gain a more personal] interpretation thereof.” Meaning thus, that God is the “rewarder of them that diligently seek him” (Hebrews 11:6), and can make Himself known and dictate His will unto us through the book regardless of what the text actually says. The Book of Mormon (and all scripture) is like a door and a doorway, with mankind standing on one side and God on the other. Some people approach the door and study the sturdiness of the wood, and the trueness of the frame. Others approach the door and analyze the intricacies of the knob and lock, and the mechanics of the hinges. Still others approach the door and feel inferior to the knowledge of the so-called experts. “I could never gain such an understanding on my own” they say. “We must defend the teachings of our experts at all costs,” they conclude. However, it is not the sturdiness of the material from which they are made, the accuracy of their words compared to secular knowledge, or expertness in their intricacies and mechanics that make the scriptures valuable to us. It is the fact that through the grace of Christ Jesus and by the power of the Holy Ghost, we can open the door and accept an invitation to enter more fully into the presence of God through them. When Jesus completed His Atoning Sacrifice, “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom” (Matthew 27:51) thus symbolizing how His Atonement offers mankind access to the presence of God. By their attempts to turn them from the revelations of God unto a secular judgement of the Book of Mormon contents and the events surrounding its coming forth, anti-Mormon predators seeks to prevent their LDS targets from using the Book of Mormon to enter more fully into the presence of God.

Yosef said...

Part 8
14.It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to rob their LDS targets of past, current, and future revelatory experience surrounding the Temple when they turn the focus from God’s revelations unto secular nuances.
The Psalmist David said, “Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore” (Psalms 16:11). Among God’s people, the Temple has always been associated with His presence and the path that exits the limits of the mortal perspective and leads to full entrance into it. Of the ancient Tabernacle, God has said, “And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory. And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office. And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God. And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God” (Exodus 29:43-46). Speaking of Latter-day Temples the Lord said, “And ye shall not suffer any unclean thing to come in unto it; and my glory shall be there, and my presence shall be there” (D&C 94:8). “And inasmuch as my people build a house unto me in the name of the Lord, and do not suffer any unclean thing to come into it, that it be not defiled, my glory shall rest upon it; Yea, and my presence shall be there, for I will come into it, and all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God” (D&C 97:15-16). “Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name. For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house. Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house” (D&C 110:6-8). Its no wonder that Satan devises so many efforts through his anti-Mormon predators in attempting to convince their LDS targets to turn from such benefits. By attempting to turn their LDS targets from focusing on success within the Temple unto a secular defense of it and an eventual scrutinizing skepticism of it, anti-Mormon predators seek to prevent their LDS targets from using the Temple to enter more fully into the presence of God.

Yosef said...

Part 9
15. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to rob their LDS targets of past, current, and future revelatory experience surrounding the Priesthood when they turn the focus from God’s revelations unto secular nuances. “The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant” (D&C 107:18-19). “And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God; But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory” (D&C 84:19-24). By attempting to turn their LDS targets from focusing on success within the Priesthood unto a secular defense of it and an eventual scrutinizing skepticism of it, anti-Mormon predators seek to convince their LDS targets to harden their hearts so that they cannot endure the presence of God while in the flesh.

Yosef said...

Part 10
16. It is the anti-Mormon predator’s intent to rob their LDS targets of past, current, and future revelatory experience surrounding tithes and offerings when they turn the focus from God’s revelations unto secular nuances. God teaches through His servant Malachi, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:8-10). Especially in light of everything that has been aforementioned about God’s efforts to make Himself known unto His children so that they can grow into His fullness through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Ghost, we can see that tithes and offerings becomes yet another area through which God wishes to accomplish this. By attempting to turn their LDS targets from focusing on success within tithes and offerings unto a secular defense of it and an eventual scrutinizing skepticism of it, anti-Mormon predators seek to convince their LDS targets to miss out on having the windows of heaven and God’s presence opened up unto them.

As Satan will always employ his servants to anything and everything to help him win his war against God. Among religious circles, his most effective tools thus far have been to mislead them into not partaking of an ever-increasing relationship with Him via personal revelation. Unique to the Restored Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are certain key things associated that act as gateways to personal revelation and that can be continually used to promote ever-increasing revelatory experiences between God and His children.

To all LDS who have become the targets of Satan and his anti-Mormon predators, do not be fooled into a secular debate concerning spiritual matters, but “seek the face of the Lord always, that in patience ye may possess your souls, and ye shall have eternal life” (D&C 101:38). God has called you to higher things and needs your full and undivided attention to bring you into His fullness. To heed the call of anti-Mormon predators would be like Peter heeding the call of the wind, rain, and waves, instead of keeping his focus on drawing near to the Savior (Matthew 14:25-32). Surely the wind, rain, and waves were real issues to be dealt with, but only as Peter looked beyond them to focus on the Savior Jesus Christ. Focusing on the reality of them did not help him accomplish Jesus’ invitation to him. Skeptics mock the LDS just as though we are attempting to walk on water, but like Peter we are only attempting to do our best to accept the invitation of Jesus Christ. Jesus knows the seed that the Adversary is attempting to plant into the hearts of His disciples and replies to those who have fallen away from succeeding in His invitations, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt” (Matthew 14:31)?

Anonymous said...

The Great and Wonderful OZ- Had a machine of deceit,but hiding behind the curtain was the inner working of the Show. Most cults like to either Hide behind their SECRET doctrines OR hide their SECRET doctrines-TRUTH CAN HURT-seeing they see NOT- Hearing they Hear NOT-
Some cults like to hide Behind Jesus Christ,
Some will hide behind the Name Jesus Christ-
But Jesus Christ is the WAY the Truth and the Light and Life, when we commit our self to seeing the Truth we do not Fear the World.
When we commit our self to the Truth, God will help us on the Path to Truth-The Truth is Trust Worthy God is Trust Worthy and we can lean and depend on the Truth of God- GOD is NOT a LIAR-LUCIFER IS
Gnosticism is Not of Christ, and Gnosticism is NOT the Teaching of Jesus Christ- Jesus Christ Being GOD is not Liar- Jesus Christ is the TRUTH and He is Not hidding the TRUTH-His truth is not hidden in SECRET CHAMBERS IN THE DESERT- Jesus Christ Fulfilled it ALL-"30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

MORMONS GNOSTICS LUCIFERIANS OPHITES AND SATANISTS all Believe that the FALL OF ADAM was a
GOD LIKE act, NOT A SIN, The FALL was be a Great STEP UP AND FORWARD, In fact MORMONS BELIEVE THAT ADAM AND EVE WE OBEDIENT TO THEIR "god"
THE FALL FOR MORMONS WAS OBEDIENCE TO "god"
MORMON BELIEVE THAT ADAM FOLLOWED THE HIGHER LAW, SO MORMONS CAN BECOME LIKE THEIR GOD. The Fall for Mormons is not SIN but obedience,
Mormons believe that Great blessing came from the Fall, like becoming more "godlike" Many Many blessing thru the Fall- Blessing of the Fall is taught by the Brethren and Apostles of the Mormon Church- Mormons Believe that The Fall was A commandment from God. YES from "god"
IF MORMONS BELIEVE THAT FOLLOWING GODS COMMANDMENT WAS NOT A FALL. THEN THERE WOULD REALLY BE NO FALL AT ALL, BUT A BLESSED REALITY OF BECOMING LIKE "god"
AND IF THE FALL WAS FOLLOWING 'gods" HIGHER LAW, THEN THERE WAS NO SIN- IT WAS OBEDIENCE
TO GOD- LUCIFER IS IN FACT THE MORMON GOD.
BECAUSE THE "FALL" WAS THE COMMAND OF "god"
ADAM DID INFACT OBEY THE MORMON "god"
The FALL WAS NOT A FALL BUT A BLESSING OF "god"
AND NOW ADAM COULD BECOME JUST LIKE HIS "god"
HE DID OBEY-BECAUSE ADAM DID OBEY MORMON "god" THE FALL WAS NO FALL AT ALL, THE "FALL WAS THE BLESSING OF "god"- Because ADAM did obey "god" there really was not a Fall- Lucifer w is the Mormon God and Saviour that set man Free and Blessed him. ADAM was Obeying "god" when Adam
"FELL" So which "god" caused the "FALL" ?
For Christians Adam disobeyed GOD, ADAM was Tempted by Lucifer the False God- Christian Believe that The TREE of LIFE was also in the GARDEN and a Free gift to MAN Kind, Lucifer, not Got tempted Adam because of ADAMS FALL, Man needed a Saviour-

Anonymous said...

Romans 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 4:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
9For as by one man’s adisobedience many were made sinners, so by the bobedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through arighteousness unto beternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
CHRISTIANS teach that GOD is Trust Worthy and NOT a LIAR.
CHRISTIAN also believe That Freemason and Mormon Temples will not Save you. Freemasony is the Religion of Lucifer built on lies and Deceit,
you will not be save by trying to working your way to heaven or buy building a tower to heaven thru works.
Only the Works of Jesus Christ will save you- If you Love Jesus Christ you will keep his commandments out of Love- Do not think Jesus Christ is Hiding in the SECRET CHAMBERS in the Desert-
Know that GOD is TRUST WORTY and not a LIAR like LUCIFER- Time to Repent-
JESUS CHRIST suffered because ADAM did FALL,
Lucifer Lied and Tricked Him, GOD did not Lie Lucifer is the LIAR FROM THE BEGINNING-
JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOUR- REPENT

Anonymous said...

Mormons Believe that The BLESSED act of ADAMS obedience to Lucifer was The First Great Blessing that GOD gave to His Children. The Mormon Apostles that are to Be Special Witnesses of Jesus Christ teach that the FALL of ADAM is a Blessing????????
Please do not belive These Lies About GOD- Lucifer is the LIAR not GOD.
Freemasonry and Mormon Templism is not Salvation.

Jesus Said; Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
FREEMASONRY is the Religion of Lucifer and Gnosticism, Freemasons Built the Tower of Babel
The Latter Day Leaders in Mormonism were all FREEMASONS-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement
When the Freemasons Excommincated the Mormons THE Mormons Still want the Luciferian Religion- They Kept it- but now it is all good because the Mormons and Mason are all friends Again.
"The dog returns to the vomit"
http://www.lds-mormon.com/masonry.shtml
http://www.irr.org/mit/masonry.html
http://www.masonicinfo.com/mormons.htm

http://www.cephas-library.com/mormons_masonry.html

http://www.salamandersociety.com/
temple/masonry/

http://www.masonicdictionary.com
/mormanism.html

www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_masons.html

I would invite your brain to look past the spell that you are under and research the above "secular"
Links

Elisheva said...

I like what that other guy said about Peter. I believe in accepting an invitation to come unto Christ no matter how impossible it seems. I believe that with His help I can do it. I am so grateful He leads me with His voice one step at a time. You are so fascinated with becoming immersed in the stormy sea, but then complain about how bad drowning is. His hand is reached out still. The best thing you can do is to forget about the various elements of the storm and GRAB HIS HAND! I’m no theologian, but I can recognize a drowning soul in need of Jesus’ helping hand. God bless you. May His outstretched arm become something you learn to embrace before it’s too late.

Anonymous said...

El-ish-eva, I like That Name, Thank you for your concern, I have put my Life in to GOD's hands, truth is we are always in GOD's Hands-We just do not always acknowledge it- Mormons are Gnostic Expelled Freemasons who continue to operate as Clandestine Mason Mormon with Masonic Temples-
I was raised in Mormonism and Went to the Mormon Temple pre-1990 and did Not like That, My commitment has been and always will be to The Truth although I am not Perfect, I live a life of Faith in God and Jesus Christ- ( no I have not Joined another church, I Trust My God who is Not a liar or confused, I Trust God and I am Happy to do so) Mormons Started out as Basic Christians as you can see from the Book of Mormon and Mormon readings of the Bible-Joseph Smith became more of a MYSTIC GNOSTIC FREEMASON in the End of His Life, He had a Gnostic Jewish Rabbi who taught Joseph a lot of Things "JEWISH" Qabalah and Magick- You have NO Idea what Freemasonry is About, You do not Know Mormon History- and if you think you do you only know the LDS-PC version of it-
Freemasonry is the SELF-Admitted Craft of Tubal Cain- a Magick Craft like WitchCraft only Darker-
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion, was a Freemason, as were the first five presidents of the Church: Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and Lorenzo Snow. When the Mormons first settled Utah, the entire church hierarchy was composed of Freemasons.
I Preach repentance from Mormonism- and I always try my best to tell the Truth-(as I see it)
If you feel the Attack on Mormon lies are to Strong
Just know that many people who leave CULTS have a passion to expose Lies of Cults-
(perhaps you could see what people who Left Scientology or Jehova's Witnesses have to Say)
any one who leaves a Cult is called Devil and Lost.
By the way How Many wive did Joseph Smith have ?
www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_polygamy

How many wives did Joseph Smith have???????
How many were TeenAgers??????????
How Many were 14 years old???
How Many were 17 years old?????
How many were 19 years old?????
How Many were Married to Living Husbands??????
Why was not D&C 132 published until 1852?????
Was Polygamy a Secret practice???????
Was is so Secret that Emma Smith Denied it?????
Was it the Cause That William Marks, Sidney Rigdon, and other were at odds with Joseph????????

Please let me know your feeling about Polygamy!

Elisheva said...

Thank you for complementing my name. I will tell my father and mother of your kindness.

A—“I Trust My God who is Not a liar or confused”

I agree that God is not confused. Humans though, will always be in a state of confusion until we have received completely of God’s fullness. Even for those on the right path “it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). I believe that this is why Jesus warned His hearers, “JUDGE not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again” (Matthew 7:1-2). Although we need to make choices of our own free will, and choice is based upon judgement, Jesus is trying to protect us from condemning others before we have a fullness of understanding. Jesus followed this teaching by saying, “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). “Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me” (John 8:15-16) “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved” (John 3:17).

A— “Joseph Smith became more of a MYSTIC GNOSTIC FREEMASON in the End of His Life, He had a Gnostic Jewish Rabbi who taught Joseph a lot of Things "JEWISH" Qabalah and Magick- You have NO Idea what Freemasonry is About, You do not Know Mormon History- and if you think you do you only know the LDS-PC version of it”

Elisheva said...

I was familiar with Judaism and the Kabbalah (that is part of the Hebrew Oral Tradition and PaRDeS) long before I became introduced to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Qabalah and Magick are not Jewish; they are a European (Gentile) corruption of a conglomerate of things. Yes they borrow from Hebrew Tradition, but they are not Jewish. All I know of Freemasonry is that they are part of the European (Gentile) corruption. I do know a little of “Mormon History,” but I have always been one to favor the fruits of application. “And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming” (1 John 2:25-28). Learning to abide in God through Judaism (which includes true Kabbalah) has prepared me to understand His concealment of Jesus in the symbols and practices of my people. As my family looked for a Christian sect to worship with, we could only find extensions of the European (Gentile) corruption of God’s teachings of “the gospel unto Abraham” (Galatians 3:8). Those places seemed to know very little about what was “written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning [Jesus]” (Luke 24:44). Their version of Jesus was nothing like the Messiah taught in Torah. When my family was introduced to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we recognized through the same Holy Spirit that taught us about Jesus, the fulfillment of many of the long awaited prophecies of Torah and Messiah. Many American LDS cannot appreciate the rejoicing of my family to see these fulfillments because they have no clue about Oral Torah. Joseph Smith was definitely not brought up or refined as a Torah scholar. But somehow, miraculously, he was able to understand more and more of the depth of God’s Torah as his life went on. My Jewish family loves the Book of Mormon. It is more Jewish than any English translation of the Bible. All of the Hebrew Oral methods can be applied when studying its depths. The same goes for the other standard works.

Elisheva said...

I may not be familiar with the “LDS-PC version” of “Mormon History,” but I have a rich heritage in God’s Covenant people. Gentile Christianity is not aimed at the Restoration of the House of Israel, nor does it possess the power and glory of God. It is through the Restoration of my people that the Gentiles will have a chance to become adopted heirs of the Covenant; the LDS work with God to help this happen. The Restored Gospel has generously given more abundant life to our Jewish culture and traditions.

A— “Please let me know your feeling about Polygamy!”

As a good Jewish girl, I can only follow the example of mother Sarah.

“NOW Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife” (Genesis 16:1-3). “LIKEWISE, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement” (1 Peter 3:1-6).

I feel as though I may have overstepped my bounds and invited myself into a place where I was not properly welcomed. I only posted the first time because I was so upset at how you responded to my father’s remarks. He has had a hard time finding American LDS that he can open up to about the depths of God’s Gospel from a Jewish perspective. I see him get excited when he gets to prepare something to share here. I shouldn’t have read his post or responded to you then or now. I will not make any further remarks. May you learn to seek truth without so much frustration in your life.

Shalom
Elisheva

Anonymous said...

Elisheva- Sorry for coming across as offensive- My intention was not to offend - But to inform-
As mentioned else where, I do not like to make Personal attacks- I am not a "Apostle" or "Prophet"
of some new church. I am left to Only trust in GOD in anything in Life- I understand well that I will be JUDGED by GOD for all my acts, I also understand that the TRUTH is a two edged and it Does cut in both directions.

Momon Polygamy is judged by its own doctrine
Jacob 2:35Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds....23 for they seek to excuse themselves in committing awhoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. 24Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Never in the N.T. or the BOM will you see Polygamy
endorsed or taught. There is more than one version of Mormon History- Here are some interesting Links

www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1880s-1890s/1887Whit.htm
www.whatismormonism.com/wife19.pdf
www.whatismormonism.com
www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/sain1860.htm#010060
http://sidneyrigdon.com/wht/1891WhtB.htm
http://freemasonrywatch.org/tracingboard.html

TWO MEN THAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT TO UNDERSTAND JOSEPH SMITH

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dee

Let me say in closing that The TRUTH is above it all
and that if we commit ourselves to GOD that we need not fear any man or anything- GOD is Faithful True and Trust Worthy- Your relationship to GOD is between you two, all I say is Trust in GOD with your eyes, ears, and heart open.
Do not trust in man or Organizations of Men-
In GOD we should Trust- May you Have peace as you Trust in the TRUE GOD.

David Littlefield said...

Elisheva:

You and your father, and your brother are all welcome here.

Putting the recent squabbling aside, I would like to hear your comments of the topics of this web site.

And perhaps even invite you to read "Mormon Mysticism" (my book), and tell me what you think.

Shalom,
David

Anonymous said...

Let me introduce all you Mormons to To The Real and TRUE GOD who is NOT a Liar- or is confused about giving conflicted commandments-
Number 23:19 God is NOT a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Numbers 23:19 God is NOT a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Do I Know "god" like your Apostles claim they Do?
No, not exactly- I have not seen GOD, I only know very little about GOD, but what I Know is only what I Know in faith and based on a limited understanding.
I believe GOD is Faithful, True, and Trustworthy.
I am a Sinner and Imperfect and always need to repent.
GOD is not a Sinner. GOD is Perfect-God is not a Deceiver, a Liar, or Confused- GOD does NOT give commandments That are in conflict- If you have Apostles that Teach that your "god'' is Liar or that your "god" gave commandments that are in conflict then Your Apostles are of an Other "god" then the Real GOD- But do not Despair you have a "lord"
and a "god" as there are "gods" and "lords" many but unto you one "god" and you can be Just like your "god".
Ether 8: 25
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
LUCIFER IS THE FATHER OF LIES
Number 23:19 God is NOT a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Alma 5: 25
25 except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

Anonymous said...

LUCIFER IS THE FATHER OF LIES
Number 23:19 God is NOT a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Alma 5: 25
25 except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.
GOD is not a LIAR- LUCIFER is the LIAR
John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
LET ME MAKE THIS AS CLEAR A I CAN TO YOU.
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YOUR GOD IS A LIAR-WELL THEN I GUESS THAT YOU ARE RIGHT AND YOU ARE CHILDREN OF YOUR FATHER AND GOD, LUCIFER-
THAT IS WHY YOU DO NOT HEAR OR UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU OVER AND OVER AND OVER, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN..
In conclusion let me say If your "god" sends me to Hell and Outer Darkness for saying that the TRUE GOD is NOT a Liar- then OKAY-
Careful because the WORD of GOD cuts Both WAYS
and if My GOD who I say is TRUE sends you to hell for saying He is a Liar I hope you are OKAY-
Just REPENT

Anonymous said...

Lucifer Lives at BYU you think I am Kidding NO,
No Not at all - Has he move his house to Salt Lake City and into Temple Square? I do Not Know-

Well, Why are all of the Quotes from BYU Luciferian- In regards to the Fall? The Point is This -

Mormons Teach That If ADAM AND EVE were NOT Obedient to Lucifer The Entire Human Race would be Lost and Good for nothing-

If not for Obeying Lucifer Jesus Christ would never Fully Be GOD

Mormon "god" needed Lucifer's Plan so Jesus Christ could become Fully God.

Mormon "god" needed Lucifer's Plan so Man kind could progress-

Lucifer's Plan becomes the Center of Mans Progression - If not for Lucifer there would Have been further progression-

Mormons believe that Great blessing came as a Result of Obeying Lucifer and Breaking God's Commandments

Christians View Lucifer as a Break Away and Hinderance to God's Plan- Christians do NOT view Lucifer as the Door Way to Exaltation- Christians do not Believe that Following Lucifer Brings us Closer to God and a God like Life- Christians believe that Lucifer is a Liar and Not to be Obeyed- Christians do not believe that by following Lucifer that the Pathway to "god" was Opened-

Christians do not Believe that following Lucifer is part of "gods" plan and a Great Blessing -

Mormons Believe that following Lucifer is a Great blessing and the Door Way to Heaven.

Christians Believe that following Lucifer is a Great Curse and the Door Way to HELL
"Latter-day revelation makes clear that the Fall is a blessing and that Adam and Eve should be honored as the first parents of all mankind." "the beneficial effects of the Fall as part of God's "great plan of happiness"eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam
Breaking God's Commandment results in Blessings?
How many blessings are there for following Lucifer in opposition to Gods commands?
The Fall was a necessary step in the eternal progress of mankind?Disobedience was a necessary step in the eternal progress of mankind?? Was there a way that mankind to earn exaltation with out following Lucifer's prompting and obeying God?
"Without the Fall, Adam and Eve would have had no children (2 Ne. 2:23); hence, the human family would not have come into existence upon this earth under the conditions and circumstances in the garden."eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam
And Eve was glad, saying, "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient" (Moses 5:11)
The Fall was not an accident, not an obstruction to God's plan, and not a wrong turn in the course of humanity. "The Lord…created the earth that it should be inhabited" by his children (1 Ne. 17:36), and since Adam and Eve would have had no children in their Edenic condition, the Fall was a benefit to mankind. It was part of the Father's plan, being both foreknown to him and essential to the human family. All these things were "done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things" (2 Ne. 2:24).
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam
When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. They had physical life because their spirits were housed in physical bodies made from the dust of the earth (see Abraham 5:7). They had spiritual life because they were in the presence of God (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 268)

Anonymous said...

Clearly Mormons Believe that Mormon "god" is dependent on Lucifer to bring to Pass the Great plan of progression - In fact Mormons praise the Fact that Adam and Eve Obeyed Lucifer - And Disobeyed the True GOD who is Not a Liar-

In some strange way for Mormons "god' was confused and conflicted and really wanted Adam and Eve to disobey HIS WORD - Break His Commandments and Follow Lucifer the Liar from the Beginning- Some how the Door way to heaven was about to be opened by following Lucifer the Liar--

When all is said and Done according to the Mormon view the REAL GOD Becomes the Liar and His Word is Void and Null and Lucifer's Suggestion to Disobey GOD's command - become the Path Way to Heaven-

I am Sure that You all think I am the One going to Hell - Because I reject the Notion That- Lucifer is Part of my Plan of Salvation - Why because I would rather trust GOD's WORD over the Lies of Lucifer-

Well I say you can all Trust in the Blessing of trusting and following Lucifer - and that Great Door way that Lucifer opened for You- Thru Disobeying GOD.

I will Seek GODS GRACE to save me - I will trust in the Works of GOD and Jesus Christ I will Trust In God's Word - and will Hope to enter into the Door way That Jesus Christ Opened - Lucifer is Not Part of GOD's Plan for Man- Lucifer tried to Destroy It-

For Mormons are there any other of "gods" commands that you must Break so that you can become more "godlike" - Be careful Witch "god" you are trying to be like thru breaking GODS commandments - Also be careful who is opening the doorways to Heaven- If Lucifer is Opening the Plan of Salvation for you - Careful I am sure he is waiting for YOU - but Where?

Anonymous said...

Was it GOD'S wish that ADAM would fall. Did GOD wish that ADAM would harken unto Lucifer's Words?
Did GOD want ADAM to dis-obey GOD'S command?
Was it GOD'S will That ADAM would fall?
Did GOD speak against HIS own will and Wish?
Did GOD have a secret wish and desire ADAM would obey Lucifer?
Does GOD say what He means and mean what HE says?
The only way it works or can work is that "god" is Dualist or that the Mormon "god" is LUCIFER-
Or the Mormon vision and veiw of the fall is Wrong.

David Littlefield said...

Annon:

You make up these logically false dichotomies to confuse yourself. First, God does not sit around wishing for things:

"...and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it." (Abraham 3:17)

David

Michael said...

Was it GOD'S wish that JESUS would suffer and die?

Did GOD wish that JESUS would be rejected by His own chosen people, spit upon, have His beard pulled out, be beaten with the fists of the priests and elders, be conspired against by His own followers, be scourged under the hand of the gentiles, to be shamefully dragged through the streets of the holy city, and to be nailed to a cross, although He (Jesus) was and is His (God's) favorite Son?

Did GOD want mankind to disobey His commandments?

Was it GOD'S will That mankind would reject and murder His Only Begotten Son?

Did GOD speak against HIS own will and Wish?

Did GOD have a secret wish and desire mankind would obey Lucifer?

Does GOD say what He means and mean what HE says?

The only way it works or can work is that "god" is Dualist or that God is actually The Almighty God and has all things before Him, past, present, and future. By the same criticism that you attack the reality of the Fall, YOU call God a hypocrite and the Devil by foreordaining Christ as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8), and then commanding that man shall not shed each other’s blood in the Noahide Laws (Genesis 9:5-6) and in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:13).

So, did God secretly desire that mankind would obey Lucifer so that His favorite Son could be tortured and murdered by their hands?

I think a more correct answer would be when Jesus said “No man taketh it [my life] from me, but I lay it down of myself” (John 10:18), and He decided to do this “from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8). In doing so, did Jesus want mankind (especially God’s Covenant people) to be guilty of torturing and bringing Him as close to death as possible before He decided to give up the ghost? But wait, I thought “God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved” (John 3:17).

God knew that mankind would disobey Him and that they needed power beyond their own in order “to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Romans 8:29). The Atonement answered both dilemmas. Jesus chose to allow mankind to abuse Him and bring Him as close to death as possible so that He could complete the Atonement. And this, in order to save them from sin and to help them to become like Him and His Father if they chose to exercise their faith in such an invitation. Likewise, Adam chose to allow Eve’s choices to lead him to physical death (mortality). The Fall provided the need for the completeness of the Atonement within their sphere of existence. Adam may not have knew all things as they were taking place, but our loving Heavenly Father did. He does not want us to follow Lucifer, disobey Him, torture, or kill anyone. He does however, use His foreknowledge of the decisions that He knows we are going to make, in order to create the most perfect circumstances for us to benefit from the Atonement of Christ. These benefits include the forgiveness of sin, but more importantly encompass our being conformed into His image through the grace of that Eternal Sacrifice and the power of the Holy Ghost. The more we grow in that process, the more we are able to see how all things testify of Christ... even the Fall of Adam and Eve. All things testify of and bring glory to the Holy Name of He who created all things.

Anonymous said...

GOD said do NOT partake -
Lucifer said Partake -

Was it "better" that Adam did not obey GOD?

Mormon answer YES

Christian answer NO

Mason answer YES

Christian Answer NO

Gnostic/luciferian Answer YES

Christian Answer NO

Lilith/Witch answer YES

Christian answer NO

Anonymous said...

In the FIRST TIME and PLACE Adam was commanded by GOD do NOT partake - There was a choice - Those that believe in the TRUE GOD believe in His word and that following GODS words and commands results in the Absolute Best and most Holy, Right Reward.

Mormons along with the Luciferians find that the "Fall" upwards results in the Absolute, Best Holy and Right Reward.

Lucifer and his snake words are the deception and salvation for the Mis-lead

GOD did not lie - trust in GODs word - Not Lucifer-
How Did Mormons make the Departure in Truth saying that somehow to dis-obey GOD and Following Lucifer brought "Great Blessing" Yes blesssing but from witch "god"?

Michael said...

Mormon’s see the benefit of Adam learning from his mistake and from the Atonement of Christ. They do not rejoice in the act of disobedience, but in the loving kindness and wisdom of God’s foreknowledge and appropriate fore-planning.

39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—
40 Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation.
41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.
42 But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.
43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:39 - 45)

According to your logic, God did not know beforehand that Adam and Eve would transgress. So according to you, the Devil and mankind must be able to frustrate God’s plans in such a way that God has to adapt His eternal plans around what the Devil and mankind will do next. This same logic would claim that Jesus came in the meridian of time to be the Messiah and the Devil frustrated His reign by causing men to betray and crucify Him. Your logic denies the foreknowledge of God and His perfect love that provides Salvation for His children despite what people or the Devil may decide to do. This doesn’t include all His children, but only those who will acknowledge their lost and fallen state and chose for themselves to follow Christ unto God’s fullness.

I think that your difficulty in understanding the scriptures and the gospel comes from using the same logic of religions that are manmade. You frequently reference “Christians” in a vague way in order to oppose the revealed doctrine of the Restored Church of Jesus Christ. I do not know exactly what you mean by the use of this term, but I have a few ideas. You may either be referencing Catholicism or Protestantism, both of whom you have condemned as “christen-dumn” in previous posts because they have adopted Hellenism and paganism into their worship practices. The only points of doctrine to which all of these factions agree on is in the Trinity doctrine, that God is unknowable and incomprehensible, and that revelation and prophets have ceased in the last days.

Michael said...

If this is your “Christian” authority, it comes from private interpretation and also from opposition to what the bible says. This doctrine opposes the reality and role of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the means by which we are able to receive the Holy Ghost through His grace. This doctrine teaches men that they must rely upon private interpretation and cannot receive revelation, which is in opposition to Peter’s teachings (2 Peter 1:20-21). This doctrine teaches men that John 17 is false, that men cannot comprehend God or become one with Him, and therefore cannot obtain eternal life (which is in opposition to God and Christ). This doctrine opposes Romans 8:17 & 29 where Paul teaches about apotheosis and deification. If these are your authorities, then you do not believe or KNOW in the reality of the Godhead, you deny revelation and the Holy Ghost, and you believe that which ever private interpretation has the loudest voice or the most ruthless bullies (the Crusades, Inquisition, camp meetings, etc.) must be the authority because they are the most popular in the world.

These factions you site as the authority on doctrine are not even united as the body of Christ with Him as their Head. They bicker and fight and condemn each other all the time. They will however, unite against a common enemy. Is this enemy the Devil, the father of contention? No. Their common enemy is any group or organization that teaches that man can communicate with God or progress through the gospel to become like Him by obtaining His fullness. Their only claim to the Holy Ghost is the excitement they feel in the midst of charismatic spokesman or energetic worship songs. They will not associate the Holy Spirit with revelation or with communication from God. In every age the “popular” religious factions have persecuted and killed those who have sought the fullness of the gospel blessings. They have a form of godliness, but truly deny the power thereof. I know that you do not believe everything they teach, especially the things that I have sited, yet you continue to use them as the measuring stick of true Christianity. It makes no sense.

I know that the Godhead works continuously to help you to chose to want to know and understand them unto oneness. This is the purpose of Creation and the purpose of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Your so-called Christian authorities oppose this; oppose God and His purposes; oppose Christ and His mission; and deny the Holy Ghost. I know that you have problems with LDS teachings and I am not asking you to believe them. I am inviting you to exercise your faith in the goal to grow in your knowledge of the Godhead unto oneness. Not in an ideal of what God must want, or who He is from anyone’s interpretation of scripture, but in your own actual experience of His character, attributes, powers, and presence from your daily walks with Him. None of the religions or churches have offered you exactly what it is you are looking for. It is because no organization can replace the need to know and become one with God (that is probably one reason David chose to explore the “mystic” side of the gospel and set up this blog). I promise you that if you begin this journey and continue in it, that God will lead you to those things that satisfy. You will find joy and fulfillment. He will help you chose the sweet in a world that has given you bitter. But you have to decide that you want to know Him and become one with Him more than you want to do anything else. I wish this for you, I pray this for you, and I know that Jesus bled from every pore and suffered death so that you could accomplish this with Them.

Michael said...

Truly I would like to follow up any of my remarks unto thee Anonymous with an apology. For it is possible and even evident that my own personal weakness and egoism has manifested itself. I apologize if I have ignited thy sensitivities. For truly my innermost designs have been to turn thee on to thy God. Meaning the True and Almighty God of Heaven and Earth. In the words of a trusted mentor, I plead with thee:

“I want to teach [or at least encourage] you [in the utmost humility] to turn to the Creator, rather than to me, because He is the only strength, the only Source of all that exists, the only One who can really help you, and He awaits your prayers for help. When you seek help in your search for freedom from the bondage of this world, help in elevating yourself above this world, help in finding the self, and help in determining your purpose in life, you must turn to the Creator, who sends you all those aspirations in order to compel you to turn to Him.
May the thoughts of [my mentor]… help all of us unite with the Creator in the course of our lives here in this world!
Our natures are responsible for constantly causing conflicts between individuals and entire nations, who, like wild animals, are engaged in a vicious struggle of the instincts. Yet, subconsciously, we cannot accept a comparison of ourselves with primitive beasts.
If, however, the Divine force that created us does exist, then why do we not perceive it, why does it conceal itself from us? For if we knew what It required of us, we would not commit those mistakes in our lives for which we are punished by suffering!
How much easier would life be if the Creator were not concealed from human beings, but were clearly perceived and seen by each and every one of us! Then, we would have no doubt of His existence. We would be able to observe the effects of His Providence on the surrounding world; realize the cause and purpose of our creation; clearly see the consequences of our actions and His response to them; be able to discuss all of our problems in a dialogue with Him; ask for His help; seek His protection and advice; complain to Him about our troubles, and ask Him to explain why He treats us as He does.
Finally, we would consult with Him for advice concerning the future; we would constantly be in contact with Him and we would be correcting ourselves in accordance with His advice. In the end, He would be pleased and we would benefit as well.
Just as a child is aware of its mother from the moment of its birth, so we would be aware of the Creator. We would learn the correct way of life by observing His reactions to our actions, and even to our intentions. We would perceive the Creator to be just as close as any mother, since we would see Him as the source of our birth, as our parent, and as the cause of our existence and that of all future life.
If the above were so, we would have no need for governments, schools, or educators. The existence of all nations would essentially focus on a wonderful and simple coexistence for the sake of a common cause apparent to all: our spiritual unification with the openly visible and perceivable Creator.”

Michael said...

“Everyone’s actions would be guided by clear spiritual laws, called ‘the commandments,’ and everyone would obey them because disobeying the commandments would obviously mean inflicting harm on the self, equivalent to jumping into a fire or off a cliff.
If we could clearly perceive the Creator and His Providence, we would have no difficulty in performing the hardest of tasks, for the personal benefit derived from these tasks would be apparent. It would be as if we were giving all our possessions to a stranger without thinking twice about the present or future.
Yet, this would present absolutely no problem, since being aware of the Divine rule would enable us to see the benefits of acting selflessly. We would know that we were in the power of the kind and eternal Creator.
Just imagine how natural it would be (and also how unnatural and impossible it is in the present condition of Divine concealment) to give ourselves fully to the Creator, to surrender all of our thoughts and desires to Him without reservation, and to be what He wants us to be.
We would not have the least concern for ourselves, and would give no thought to ourselves. In fact, we would cease to be aware of our own selves and would transfer all our feelings from ourselves to Him, trying to approach Him and to live by His thoughts and His will.
From the above, it should be clear that the only element lacking in our world is our perception of the Creator. THE ATTAINMENT OF SUCH A PERCEPTION SHOULD BE OUR SOLE PURPOSE IN THIS WORLD. THIS IS THE ONE GOAL WE SHOULD SPARE NO EFFORT TO ACHIEVE, FOR ONLY WHEN WE CAN PERCEIVE THE CREATOR CAN WE RECEIVE HIS HELP. This would save us from both the calamities of this life and from a spiritual death, thereby according us spiritual immortality without having to return to this world” (A wise sage and my mentor for many precious truths. Emphasis added).

Anonymous said...

Long Winded dodge ball?

Was the True and Greater Blessing to be Had thru being Obedient to GOD or Was it to be Had thru Being Obedient to Lucifer?

When GOD said "Do not partake" did GOD really want Adam to Obey Him? Where and who could provide the Most Right True and Holy Blessings ?
Who is to be obeyed and Trusted?

It is against the Nature and Character of GOD that he would Give a Commandment but provide the Better "blessings" as Mormons like to call it by being disobedient to GOD and doing the will of Lucifer.

Mormons are mis-lead on this issue of the Fall- and more so as of late have embraced the Luciferian Doctrine of the Fall being a "Blessing'" and Gift from GOD so we can earn our Exaltation. Falling UP ?????

Anonymous said...

Is Eternal Life to Know GOD?
The first example in the Old T Book is GOD's interaction with Man (ADAM ) - Mormons seems to have the Luciferian View of the Fall -

The "Christians" do Not embrace the Luciferian Doctrine. The Mormons do I have Quoted in the many post above from Preisthood Manuals, BYU Talks, G.A. Talks - Church Books and Others that Mormons Beleive that the Fall was Upwards and a Blessing from GOD-

You must know Who to TRUST - GOD- GOD said do not Partake - Then came the Great Curses. Then GOD in his Mercy thru GRACE provides Salvation at a very Great Price NOT MERITED NOT Earned a Free Gift Like the Tree of Life-

The Tree of Gnosis of EVIL and Good
in OPPOSITION
to the
TREE OF LIFE

Anonymous said...

Because you need to know - If I were Lucifer and the Devil himself - and if Mormonsim with all of Its beliefs Temple Masonry- Luciferian/Gnostic View are Wrong - in the End iT will be about the Truth - Not ME-

It will not be about your Pre-judgements of Trying to Nail Me down - Let the Truth be the focus -

Mormon have crossed over from the traditional
"Christian" view of the Fall and are in the Gnostic Camp along with Lilith, Sophia, Promethesis, Luciferians, Master Masons, Witches, The list goes on and on - Every wonder Why? Joseph Smith and The early Leaders Were MASTER MASONS - Sworn to the Devil in the Wicked and Forbidden Manner-
In FreeMasonry to Make the Perfect Oath and Covenant to Lucifer Thru Cain and Tubal Cain.
"19 For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.'
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Anonymous said...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as Mormons, or LDS more specifically) The early blessing of God to Adam and Eve to "multiply and replenish" (Gen 1:28) is connected to the later command of God to Adam and Eve to not partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:16-17). Therefore these two aspects of the creation account are taught as to be obligatory yet apparently contradictory commands of God. The disobedience of Eve and Adam, therefore, becomes not quite the cause for humanity's perpetual ancestral or original sin condition (were it not for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ), per se, but a "fall forward." The Fall was a separation from living communion with God, yet was a necessary transgression intended by God so that humankind may come to be and experience joy:
Mormonism believes that the Fall was necessary as part of God's plan to redeem and exalt his children. When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he gave them two seemingly contradictory commandments: First, to "multiply and replenish the earth"; and second, not to partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Mormonism emphasizes that Adam and Eve's subsequent partaking of the fruit was a "transgression," not a sin. Eve, after partaking, understood that without partaking of the fruit they could have no posterity, and hence could not fulfill the command to multiply and replenish the earth, partook of the fruit; Adam, seeing that his wife would be driven out of the Garden and he would be alone and unable to fulfill God’s command, partook as well.

Michael said...

Regardless of any recorded material, any interpretation not given by the Holy Ghost is private and therefore false. I have encouraged you not to embrace the LDS perspective, but to embrace the inspiration that God so anxiously awaits to give you. Not so that you can become an authority, but so that He can help you become one with Him eventually. All this coming through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Ghost. Please turn your focus unto becoming one with Him through Christ and not unto arguments on a secular level.

“I want to teach you to turn to the Creator, rather than to me, because He is the only strength, the only Source of all that exists, the only One who can really help you, and He awaits your prayers for help. When you seek help in your search for freedom from the bondage of this world, help in elevating yourself above this world, help in finding the self, and help in determining your purpose in life, you must turn to the Creator, who sends you all those aspirations in order to compel you to turn to Him.”

If you continue to disregard the Almighty God and the blessings that come through His Christ, you will continue to turn the Holy Scriptures into dead words in a dead book.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:19 - 21)

So you also need the Holy Ghost in order to understand what is written in the scripture. As long as you use your own logic to make sense of the scriptures, you continue to prevent God from explaining to you how to use them in order to gain greater access to His Presence.

The scriptures are like a doorway and door that divides mortal man from the presence of God. Some people approach the scriptures and are impressed by the trueness of the frame, the strength of the door, and the perfection of the entire architecture. Other people approach the scriptures and are impressed by the mechanics and power of the hinges and lock. As these people become expert in the science of the doorway they easily attract and impress others with their vast knowledge and wisdom. “I could never begin to gain such a knowledge or understand such things on my own,” some onlookers say. “We must protect and defend our teachers at all costs,” other onlookers say. And while the frame may be true, the door may be strong, the architecture perfect, the hinges and lock powerful and impressive, the purpose of the scriptures is to open the door and allow mortal man access to the fullness of the presence of God.

I continue to encourage you to use the scriptures to gain access to the power and presence of God through Christ’s Atonement and the power of the Holy Ghost. Using them to argue private interpretation is not helping you to gain the fulfillment and joy that you seek and that God desires that you receive.

I do not consider you a devil, but a child of God in search of the joy and fulfillment that only He can provide, and this through His Christ and Holy Spirit.

Anonymous said...

GOD said do NOT partake -
Lucifer said Partake -

Was it "better" that Adam did not obey GOD?

Mormon answer YES

Christian answer NO

You play dodge ball with long windedness and by not being direct- you avoid the Truth with invalidations-
"If you continue to disregard the Almighty God and the blessings that come through His Christ, you will continue to turn the Holy Scriptures into dead words in a dead book.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,""Regardless of any recorded material, any interpretation not given by the Holy Ghost is private and therefore false."

Mormons have Made mockery of GOD saying He Gave the Two commandments in contridiction one with another - The Mockery is from freemasonry and the luciferian doctrine - Those that believe That the Advice of Lucifer was a Blessing are deceived - The FALL was not a blessing - You can talk all about your being conformed into the Image of GOD - But if you call him a Liar first - You also Mock GOD - MORMONS Say GOD gave Two commandments in Contridiction - Mormons also Say that following the Advice of Lucifer and to diobey GOD the "FALL" was a blessing - Like a gift from GOD - Answer the real question - WAS THE FALL A BLESSING FROM GOD?

" We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed"?????

Michael said...

It has always been difficult to discuss “spiritual” matters with you because you look at everything so secularly. As we have had difficulty in the past, even to where my pride has gotten the best of me (my apology), I was hoping that this go-around might not end up contentious. It is clear that you are looking for a black-and-white answer to a loaded question. The answer you seek is right in front of your face, but you don’t see. Or you may just be determined to have “Mormons” admit that they are wrong despite what the truth really is. Either way, you have expressed in the past that you have feelings of frustration and do not really feel comfortable with any denomination or sect. It is that Anonymous that I am hoping to speak with. The “more sure word of prophecy” that I speak of is not recorded scripture or any LDS writings, it is the power of the Holy Ghost that any person needs in order to understand the gospel. Although I have been baptized in the LDS Church, any person LDS or not that will not allow themselves to be lead by the Holy Ghost is converting their gospel experience into a private interpretation. “Jesus answered and said unto [Nicodemus], Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness” (John 3: 3, 11). Although Jesus is witnessing to Nicodemus about what He has seen and known, He has first encouraged Nicodemus to become born again (by the Spirit) so that he may see or perceive the kingdom of God. In other words, Jesus teaches the necessity of all me to become born of the Spirit if they wish to perceive the organization, order, manner of workings, intricacies, etc. of how God is conducting His affairs. It is only through the aid of the Holy Ghost that mankind can grow into the body of Christ with Him as their Head. The Holy Ghost unifies, while private interpretation separates. Although we have differing viewpoints on some areas, the Holy Ghost it attempting to unify us despite either persons personal weaknesses (I have many). It would be easy to argue, debate, bash, etc. about a particular point, but the greater truth is that the Savior is working “to reconcile all things unto himself… whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:20). I could tell you what you want to hear or tell you something else, but it will not accomplish the greater purposes of God. I opt to do what I can to not hinder God’s success in your life, and encourage you to seek to know Him and become one with Him. It is through this that He will help you find peace and fulfillment about your questions.

It is interesting though that there are parallels between this situation and the one you seek answers about. In the Garden of Eden story Adam (although of his own free will he chose to remain with Eve, rather than eat because of Satan’s tempting), Eve, and Satan were ALL wrong.

(I have chosen LDS scripture to also attempt to share with you how LDS really view the Fall)

Even according to LDS scripture:
Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation. Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed (D&C 29: 40-41).

Michael said...

Disobedience to God is wrong, and all parties involved were punished.

However, “I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son” (D&C 29:42).

After years of obedient labor and sacrifice (Moses 4:1-6) Adam and Eve did not rejoice in their Fall. Even after the angel finally appeared and taught them about repentance and redemption through Christ they did not rejoice in their Fall (Moses 4:7-8). It was not their private interpretation of these events that lead them to rejoice. It was only after “the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will” (Moses 5:9), that “in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters (Moses 5:10-12).

Although the God commanded sacrifice and angel expounded teachings were good and holy, it was not by Adam and Eve’s private interpretation of these things that brought them true clarity, hope, and joy. Those blessing only come when Holy Ghost illuminates our understandings.

Unfortunately when it does, most of our peers do not understand our logic or reasoning for rejoicing. For example, I was once working for a company that did pick-up and delivery services for a Federal Prison manufacturing warehouse. During my time there I got to meet many inmates that were employed by this warehouse. One of them told me of his story. He was raised in a wealthy family with everything he ever wanted (Paradise). As he got older he would race BMWs very dangerously with his friends. After he graduated from college, he got involved with money embezzling at his work, and that is how he ended up in prison (punishment). He told me prison was the best thing that had ever happened to him (rejoicing). Many of the other inmates heard this and shouted profanities about how he was crazy and such (arguments about who was right). He pulled me aside and told me that before prison, he thought he was free and knew how to live life to the fullest (Adam and Eve had not reached their full potential in the Garden and sought more through Satan). Then he got quiet and told me that it was during his time in prison that he truly learned what freedom and fulfillment was all about (as Adam and Eve struggled through mortality, they learned to appreciate where true freedom and fulfillment come from—the Atonement of Jesus Christ, not their own misguided choices). Although he wished he would have started his life out living right, he would not trade his life experiences and the lessons they taught him for the world. His fellow inmates were not ready to understand his answer, but I did, because we both saw things from the same perspective because of similar experiences.

Michael said...

This story doesn’t exactly parallel the Fall, but I hope it illustrates why Jesus was telling Nicodemus how important it was that he too become born of the Spirit. It is impossible for us to learn to see eye to eye with God or with each other without it. It is the same when my young son wants to help me work on something complicated. I allow him to help me, but he wants to do it his way or questions my decision-making. Since he is unable to see the big picture, he gets frustrated because I cannot answer his demands the way he wants them answered.

I am not trying to compare you to a child or to an unwise inmate, but I am trying to say that we ALL are like that when we do not learn to live our lives in a way that progressively strengthens our ability to be led by the Holy Ghost unto a perfect understanding of God.

The LDS may see a benefit that resulted from the Fall, but it isn’t that Adam and Eve learned to follow Lucifer. It is that God’s Infinite Goodness provided an Atonement and growth through the Holy Spirit for them to eventually obtain more than they had previously enjoyed in the Garden experience. Just like my friend, nobody but Satan was happy that laws and commandments were broken and punishments were handed out, but the lessons learned through repentance, the Atonement, and Holy Ghost were priceless.

It is not my desire to play dodgeball with long-windedness, but to encourage ALL men, LDS or not, to learn to stop playing dodgeball with the Holy Ghost and start growing into the fullness of God’s power and presence through the Atonement of Christ. I think that David would agree that that is his purpose in exploring the mystical side of the gospel. It is so crucial for us to stop looking at the gospel (LDS or not) in a secular way (yes, many LDS do it too), and start to support each other in systematic and more deliberate efforts to grow into the fullness of God through the blessings of Jesus Christ’s Atonement and His gospel.

Anonymous said...

"and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient." OBEDIENT to Who and What?
"wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation."
DIS-OBEDIENT?
"It has always been difficult to discuss “spiritual” matters with you because you look at everything so secularly." Are you a JUDGE of Souls?

All of the nice phrases will not Mason Luciferianism into Goodness-

LET me Repeat GOD is not to be Mocked with your faith on Mormon double speak - It is sure that the Mormon Position on the FALL is Gnostic -

Mormonism takes it further down the road of Doom by say silly things Like the Commands were
"contradictory"

"Mormonism believes that the Fall was necessary as part of God's plan to redeem and exalt his children. When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he gave them two seemingly contradictory commandments: First, to "multiply and replenish the earth"; and second, not to partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil."

The Brethern are Clear that the "FALL" was a "BLESSING" "wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation."
THE GNOSIS was part of the "BLESSING"

Not just the follow-up plan of redemption!!!

The Fall was not an accident, not an obstruction to God's plan, and not a wrong turn in the course of humanity. "The Lord…created the earth that it should be inhabited" by his children (1 Ne. 17:36), and since Adam and Eve would have had no children in their Edenic condition, the Fall was a benefit to mankind. It was part of the Father's plan, being both foreknown to him and essential to the human family. All these things were "done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things" (2 Ne. 2:24).
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Fall_of_Adam

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. They had physical life because their spirits were housed in physical bodies made from the dust of the earth (see Abraham 5:7). They had spiritual life because they were in the presence of God (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 268)

Was the FALL the Right, Holy, Proper and "Blessed" "act of God" OF ADAM doing the acts of the FATHER under the Guidance, Will, Instruction "Wish" of the HOLY GHOST -----or wall he doing the acts of the Devil and Lucifer -

Who's Will and Desire was to receive and give the Greatest Blessing - The Father or Lucifer?

Please give a straight answer.

The TRUTH is right infront of you

Anonymous said...

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my (transgression) my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have ejoy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

2 Ne. 2:23 (22–25)
And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no (sin).

SIN no Sin?
Transgression no Transgression?

These two Scriptures are used as "NEW" revelation that make clear that the Gnostic/Luciferian Doctrine is justified as Mormon Doctrine-

Even as an 'X" Mormon I can tell you that there is more than one way of Looking a POGP 5: and 2nd Nephi 2:

I will not try to defend against luciferian/Gnosticism in Mormonism because it is Growing.
But you do well to know the difference between the words "WOULD" and the word "SHOULD"

WOULD COULD SHOULD 3 and different

Please Under stand that Eve was Tricked, Adam was Not- After Eve Partook -Adam THEN made the Choice to Fulfill the First Commandment BUT Only because Eve had Partook and Only After Eve Partook.

22And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed He would not have fallen, but He would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

That Scripture Says that The Fall came about BY ADAM Not EVE - infact unless ADAM Partook with his Wife there would Be NO Fall - ADAM fell that Man Might BE - The Women being deceived was in Trangression - ADAM was Not Deceived -

The LDS church has made a doctrinal turn down a dead end street- And now Embraces Gnosticism

Anonymous said...

According to "Mormonism" the only way we could be "BLESSED" and have any type of Eternal Life Salvation, or Exaltation was that Adam would Dis-obey GOD -

Yes Lucifer played a Great part in GOD's Plan. Lucifer open the door for mankind. According to Mormonism Lucifer Opened the doorway to Mankind to receive Eternal Life and being Born. God could not do it without Lucifer.

According to Mormonism GOD's Plan was Frustrated and in Contradiction The mormon God gave commandments that could not be Fulfilled- Lucifer saved the day by 'helping" mankind to Receive "blessings" The Gnosis, Having children and Eternal Life.


According to MASONS/MORMONS Man would not and could not BE, or Have "REAL" Eternal Life unless Lucifer Helped ADAM and EVE to Dis-Obey GOD

It was only thru dis-obeying GOD that the "REAL" blessing of Heaven could Be Had.

The Who Idea of the Gnosic Gospel is in Mormonism/Masonry -V/s those of Faith that Obey GOD out of love. GOD Provided the TREE OF LIFE as a Free Gift.

The Mason/Mormon is Climbing Ladders and Building Towers to Heaven

John 10:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

You can only go to Mormon Heaven if you go to the Masonic/Mormon temples and also get a permission slip from Joseph Smith in the after world.

The Whole Idea of the Fall and what was the True Gospel - Starts in the Garden Story

And the Idea that not Obeying GOD give us access to the Greater "Blesssings" is Gnostic

Mormonism/Masonry/Gnosticism is another "Gospel"

The Right and Holy thing is to Trust and Follow GODS Words and Commands

Following Lucifer Does not Result in the better or the best "Blessing" unless you believe Lucifer is the god that blesses you.

Anonymous said...

The FALL Down to Death - Redemption? Eternal Life?

GOD could not be GOD and be Double minded in His Word, Will, Thought, or Deed.

GOD Said "DO NOT" partake - GOD was not confused When GOD said "NOT"

GOD was not depending on Lucifer to bring "REAL" Eternal Life to MAN

GOD did not withhold Eternal Life From MAN - Adam
because of Eve Partook Of the Tree of Death - Yes the Gnosis Tree brought HELL/Death to Man. Both Deaths and Eternal in nature.

If GOD wished/willed that man would Fall he would have said so. God said DO NOT PARTAKE

Which god said "Partake" and Which god said "Do Not Partake" ?

Who is your God and is your God Holy?

Anonymous said...

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God,

Who is your God and is your God Holy?

Adam sinned - How? Why?

ADAM and EVE Dis-Obeyed GOD by following the Words and Will of Lucifer - Adam and Eve partook of the Gnosis Tree of Death -

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

GOD gave Adam and Eve the Gift of the TREE of ETERNAL LIFE -

Adam and Eve were Tempted by Lucifer to FALL
Adam and Eve were not "BLESSED" by a Confused GOD for Dis-obeying GOD'S Commands-
The FALL was Against GOD'S Word, Will, and Commandment.

GOD was not and is not confused in his Word, Will or Commands - GOD does Not have a Secret Will or Wish that we Break any of his Commands-

His Will, Word, and Commands are NOT
" apparently contradictory commands" as the Mormons Like to say.

Following Lucifer and Falling is Not a Blessing, Never was, Never will Be.

Is Your GOD Trusty Worthy? Is His WORD TRUSTWORTY? DO NOT MAKE GOD a LIAR !!!

Who is your God and is your God Holy?

Anonymous said...

The LDS may see a benefit that resulted from the Fall"?

What would have Been of Adam and Eve if they Did Obey GOD and did not Fall?

Would Adam and Eve have "BLESSINGS" with held if they Obeyed GOD?

Mormons suggest that the FALL was a "BLESSED' act.
Blessed by who? God or Lucifer?

Mormons suggest thatby Dis-Obeying GOD that GOD gave some kind of Blessings.

2 Deaths and Eternal?

Mormons are Gnostic and you Admit IT
"The LDS may see a benefit that resulted from the Fall," that is all a Gnostic Gnotion-

GOD expressed his WORD -Do NOT PARTAKE - Adam Dis-Obeys GOD and Mormons say It was a "Blessed" act and the Will of GOD, and Part of GOD's Plan - GOD said No - Lucifer Said Yes - Adam follows Lucifer - Mormons say IT is a Blessing
WHO is YOUR GOD? IS HE HOLY and TRUE?

Why did GOD say "do not Partake"?
Was God right or wrong?
Was Lucifer right or wrong?
Are there any other Blessings that could be had by Dis-obeying GOD?
Could you share a story about how you were blessed by following Lucifer, besides the Mormon one about the Fall?

Anonymous said...

Funny is it not that GOD said DO NOT Partake -and Lucifer said Partake - Okay all you Mormons why did GOD say DO NOT - Lucifer Says PARTAKE - Adam Partakes- Mormons say following Lucifer results and Ends In the blessing of Exaltation.
Mormons Say if it was not for Lucifer and his advice to have Adam, disobey GOD that Mankind would be damned - See for Mormons Lucifer really did open the door to salvation and Exaltation- Salvation came from disobeying GOD -

Following Lucifer brings Exaltation.
Following GOD for Mormons is Damnation- Mormons do not believe in GOD in a Logical, Moral or Spiritual Manner- It is all in your Teaching and Talks and Doctrines.

Mormons make GOD evil, wicked and the author of sin and suffering.

No Mormon has ever given a Good reason why God said "do not partake" and then believe that Lucifer was "right" and GOD was Wrong. REPENT!!!!!!

Why did GOD say "do not partake"?

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