Wednesday, September 3, 2008

Proposition 8 - The Fight is On!

I don’t usually share my political opinions on this blog, I reserve it for spiritual concerns. However, I am going to make an exception in this case. Perhaps it is not really an exception at all, because this topic strikes at the heart of eternal pursuits, the topic of this blog.

Let me state here that these are solely my opinions; they do the represent the church’s views, or the views of any political group.

For those of you outside of California, let me inform you, the fight is on! The fight for what we politely call “Traditional Marriage.” For clarity, what it really is over is if the state will issue marriage licenses to same sex couples and force third parties to honor those marriages. Something is wrong about this whole paradigm, people can sense it, but not put their finger on it.

First, homosexuality is sin (Rom. 1:27). And while that sin may have some more exotic twists, it will get a person to hell about at the same speed as straight fornication, and a list of other bad behaviors. Gender is a part of us from the preexistence and is central to our eternal progression. Gender confusion, is one of the wounds of mortality that must be healed to receive our full spiritual inheritance ( Healing).

All people are children of God. We are all born with certain unalienable rights (Declaration of Independence, D&C 134). Rights are some of the rules we are given to play by. Without rights, there is no objective right and wrong; we are ultimately just spiders eating one another with no moral consequence. In LDS theology we believe the Light of Christ will tell us if something is right or wrong.

As individuals or nations, we have no right to stop anyone from having sex with anyone they want. We all have agency, and as long as we do not interfere with anyone else’s agency and rights, what we do is not rightfully subject to control by anyone else. God still says it is sin, and prophets and ministers can still call it sin, but the perpetrators of the sin can choose to hear or not hear the calls of repentance. [1]

Another right we have is to believe what we want is sin and choose to associate or not associate with whomever we want, or to limit our associations in whatever way we want. This is called freedom. A thing found less and less in our growing socialist state.

One of the rights we were born with is the right to marry. If it is a right, we don’t need to ask for permission (license) from government or anyone else. And when the government started licensing marriage this fight was lost. If something is rightfully licensed, it is not a right. Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young ever got a marriage license, they refused to do so.

In a fair and just society, people can marry by what means they desire. They could marry in the Holy Temple, or by jumping the broom. They could choose to record those marriages for public notice, like a deed. And people would be free to accept or reject those marriages as they choose (plural marriage included). If people wish not to rent a house to an LDS couple because they reject a temple marriage, so be it. The house is the landlord’s to do with as he pleases, and he should be free to refuse to rent to those he deems as living in sin. Agency is central to the plan of salvation.

Truly, my view is we should not interfere with homosexuals marrying, except to preach repentance to them. The problem is that the state is granting a license that should not be given to anyone. By giving these licenses to homosexuals, they force the rest of us to honor these marriages, which is an infringement of our rights. This infringement will grow in society in un-imagined ways.

In a socialist state you may as well take the free cheese, you paid for it to begin with. Meaning, we need to deal with the real situation we are in. We need to fight the fight where we are, not where we would like the fight to be. If I had my rathers we would be joining ranks with homosexuals to defeat marriage licenses altogether.

We have a sick society; government does grant licenses to heterosexual couples, which is bad enough. If proposition 8 does not pass, homosexual marriage will sweep the land. Further rights will be taken from the rest of us exponentially, and we will look back on this as a milestone of the destruction of the family and of America.


[1] “We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.” [ The Family: A Proclamation to the World


RWW said...

You started off very well, anyway. When I read

Something is wrong about this whole paradigm, people can sense it, but not put their finger on it.

I didn't expect you to name the problem: state licensing of marriages. Obviously I'm with you on that, and I love what you said about the role of agency in the law, but I'm not convinced by the rest of your argument.

Fortunately, however, I left California some time ago for many other reasons, so I don't have to choose whether to vote on Prop 8.

David Littlefield said...


Hey I will take what ever agreement I can get.

But about not having to worry about voting on Prop8, you may not need to worry about voting now, but the experts say regarding this proposition; as goes California, goes the nation. That is why national attention and pressure is at play here.


Steven Montgomery said...

Great post David. I agree with you philosophically that granting licenses for marriages (or for that matter licenses for any number of other things, such as contractor's, beautician's, and the like) should simply not be a power for the state.

I also liked the point you made about recording a marriage with the county recorder like you do with a deed. I've been a free-market constitutionalist (or at least I like to consider myself that) all of my adult life but frankly I had never thought about it that way. Makes perfect sense though. If you want the legal protections that come with marriage (such as those over estate and probate matters, and others) then record your marriage with the county recorder.

I also agree with you however that as a practical matter, in today's reality, and given the far left's agenda to destroy marriage and the family that support of Prop 8 and other measures are vital and necessary. Thanks for the post.

David Littlefield said...

Thank you Steven.

The warm reception of this post was unexpected. So far so good. We will see how it goes from here.


Anonymous said...

I agree with propostion 8 because throughout the history of the world marriage was cleary defined between a man and woman. All of a sudden, we have to vote on weather this is right?
I have many gay friends and I love them. I just believe that man and woman were made the way they were for a reason. That reason is so that they could create a union together and have children. You cannot do that when there is a girl and girl or boy and boy.

Jon Spencer said...

As a displaced seventh generation San Jose, California native, I am saddened by the state of that State. If it is indeed true that as goes California, so goes the nation, then we are very lost indeed. The existence of marriage licenses is a natural consequence of the income tax, and the death tax, and the various regulations which flow from them. It is a consequence of child protection laws and divorce courts and welfare policies.

So marriage licenses are just a chunk of the iceberg. But I agree with you in that that iceburg has a rather large presence in our own little oceans. (OK, this analogy is leaving me cold too, so I'll stop.) CA Proposition 8 is truly a Trojan Horse, meant to be the beginning of the end, meant to be used to destroy the concept of the traditional, stable family unit, moving control of our children and our lives to the state. We can choose to ignore voting for or against such initiatives because we cling to a narrow concept of agency, feeling that we should not support restriction of individual rights. But in making that assessment, we forget that by so doing, we are tacitly promoting the greater restrictions of individual rights which will follow.

I do not live in CA, but in a place which is, at the moment, far more patriotic, free and safe (the South, GA in particular). Thus, I cannot directly participate in this narrow battle. But we all can participate in the war. We can promote sane policies in our home municipalities and states. We can educate people on the root causes of these problems (Marbury vs Madison, etc.). And we can strive to live righteous lives.

Thnks for your excellent blog.

Anonymous said...

The people of the Lord have become Mute Angels and the salt has lost its Savior, layers of thick darkness in the mist of evil,
The Government has Taken the power from the People, and the Government is setting up free speech zones and ascribing Hate speech to those who believe in God or God-ness.
Now prepare your selves to withstand the wrath of God to be poured out upon the nations, The Lord will not be Muted but will speak with the sword, pestilence
floods, mighty winds and the seas with great force going beyond their bounds. the heavens and also the earth will shake, and the sun will scorch men,
I think we really need to speak of God and the Godlife, clean up our act, and hold on tight.
Mercy on us if God with-draws his blessings upon our Rich and Beautiful nation,
Also we need to read the scriptures< The Book of Mormon is Our vision of our Day, if we are lost and blind it is because we did not look or if we looked we did not see.

RWW said...

Jon: Georgia, patriotic? Based on my visits, I think you have a "narrow concept" of patriotism.

My short answer to Proposition 8 is that I reject the use of government to enforce sexual morality. This is patriotism. If you want to defend traditional marriage with the guns of the state, then vote for a law that affirms your right to discriminate. This I would support wholeheartedly, even to the point of voting for it.

RWW said...

(Sorry, I didn't mean to insult Georgia, but the prevailing attitude there seemed to me more like nationalism than patriotism. I guess to me patriotism means love for the founding principles of the U.S., rather than love for its current situation, but that might not be the most common meaning.)

Jon Spencer said...

As for Georgia being patriotic: Having lived in CA for 42 of my years, in the DC for about 3, and in NC and GA for about 15, I can certify that the South, including GA, is far more patriotic than most of the country. There are exceptions, of course. Parts of Atlanta are very blue and not very - well - miltary/flag friendly. However, there are more flags, yellow ribbons, and military stickers on vehicles, more prayers including asking for protection of our troops, more patriotic celebrations (our Stake choir is aurthorized to perform at community events - we do several community patriotic concerts each year, and are asked to do many more that we can't fit into our schedule). I have Army and Army Ranger (3rd BN) decals on my car and I get lots of positive comments, etc. This does not and did not happen outside of the South very often.

As for the "use of government to enforce sexual morality," you both miss and make my point. First, I acknowledge thatyour position is internally consistent and valid; I just disagree with it. You miss my point because traditional family protection is not about sex, any more than was plural marriage. This isn't the forum for a big discussion of this topic, but they both are about doing what is best for each individual and for your descendants, giving them the best opportunity to return to live with Father. You also make my point because while sticking to a narrow (although I must admit consistent) view of state enforcement of moral values, by taking this stand in the world we live in, that stand will help promote and spread something that works against the Plan of Salvation and promotes Lucifer's plan. Given the social context of Proposition 8, that of the infliction of other consequences that far exceed just allowing same sex marriages, then not preventing same sex unions from being categorized the same of traditional marriages will yield a far worse result. Yes, it is damned if you do and damned if you don't, but the two negatives do not have the same import IMNSHO.

Jon Spencer said...

Re: Sorry, I didn't mean to insult Georgia ,,,

No offense taken. I clearly assumed that you had only been in downtown Atlanta, but your later post cleared that up.

I agree that there is a difference between nationalism (close to jingoism) and patriotism. I don' think that in general the South is "my country, right or wrong." I think that there is a genuine support for good, solid, basic principles, many of which are part of the principles on which this country was founded. I think that Southerners are in the same class as the people in many small Northern and Western towns, and I think that the principles they live are compatible with gospel principles in many ways.

In Alma (somewhere around chapter 43-45 - wait! I have a BoM here ... Well, Alma 48:25 is not exactly what I was looking for but it works), we are told that if even a remnant of His people will keep the commandments, they will proper in the land, and the country will continue to receive His protection. So my take on this is if we do our best within the power that we have to try to keep the commandments, and try to keep the country from falling further into sin by whatever righteous means are at our disposal, including voting for Proposition 8 even though it is partially flawed, then we will continue to "prosper" in the land, and will be allowed to continue to exercise our Priesthood and to help to build Zion.


David Littlefield said...

Thank you all for your comments.


robert said...

"By giving these licenses to homosexuals, they force the rest of us to honor these marriages, which is an infringement of our rights."

What on earth are you saying here? You make it sound like we want the Church to perform same sex marriage ceremonies. This is a civil law matter. It only involves civil rights...nothing important going on here, right?

Nathan said...

Robert said, "You make it sound like we want the Church to perform same sex marriage ceremonies. This is a civil law matter. It only involves civil rights...nothing important going on here, right?"

Robert, that is exactly what is likely to happen by legalizing same-sex marriage---churches that refuse to perform them will be disenfranchised.

There are several legal consequences like this that are often ignored by proponents of SSM. For another example, read about the Parker family, in Massachusetts, where their kindergartener was being taught about how same-sex marriage was normal. When the dad insisted that he be notified before such instruction happened, and be given the ability to opt his child out, the principal said that they were not required to notify the parent because SSM was a legal institution and thus the school could broach the topic at any time and in any way they chose, without needing parental permission.

There are MANY extremely negative consequences of legalizing same-sex marriage.

Anonymous said...

No deals with the Devil. No is No !!!!!

This is a Most dangerous twist, God does not allow this life style, as this gay lifestyle is Twisted. Twisted and off course with out children and families.

In rebellion of God's creation, plan and pattern.

Tolerance and Understanding of this Evil is not Holiness. Darkness of the mind is in this embrace with Evil.

All of us are sinners and need to repent.
This group of Gays will call down the wrath of God upon us all and would make waste of the Holy and Godly.

Anonymous said...

Hopefully prop 8 does not pass. We need to be a more compassionate people. Those who have strong ties to religion should of course be respected, as do those who do not. There are many beliefs, many religions, and all are valid. Live your life the way you feel it should be lived, and respect those that hold different beliefs than you, so longs as they respect yours. God is love.

Jon Spencer said...

As has been said in several other forums, but perhaps not so clearly on this forum, is that there are some very strong secular arguments for restricting the definition of "marriage" to one man and one woman. Foremost among these is that both individuals and societies do their absolute best when a child is raised by both a mother and a father. That is simply a fact. That it is consistent with God's laws is quite natural, since God's laws are given to direct us in the way to be most successful in the long term. But putting that aside, extending certain rights to only heterosexual couples is best for society. Many outlying and unexpected side effects come from extending the definition of marriage beyond these bounds (examples already provided on this thread).

It seems to me to be intuitively obvious that a Christian would grant certain rights to all people, regardless of sexual preference or marital status. Those rights would include hospital visitation, life insurance beneficiary, etc. - all the rights that accrue to the individual by having control over their personal contracts. This could be memorialized as some other class of societal personal commitment, such as civil unions or the like.

I assert that the societal purpose of marriage is to provide a stable environment for the continuation of that society, and for the long term success of each individual, and thus the long term success of the society. Anything which works against that purpose will by necessity subvert that purpose.

Anonymous said...

Now that Prop 8 has passed , I let my sheep and goats come out and play I have them locked in the Barn just incase.

How about a little more insight about licenses and Government permits and our rights.

Is marriage or any other right a privilege?

It May be a privilege to have a license, but do we need a license for our Rights?

I would only say we need a license for our rights in as much as we give away our rights to the Rulers of us the ruled.

The Mystery of rights and privileges.

Anonymous said...

I think I had better put my goats and sheep back in the barn, I seen those Hate 8 people walking on the street and they were looking and my animals with lust in their eyes. I seen them weeping and gnashing their teeth and saying bad things about Mormons.

They seemed to be lovely people, they were all so liberal and all about tolerance and free speech. I do not think they would hurt a fly nor Two angels from heaven, then and maybe again.

Anonymous said...

I'm a latin girl,my name is Gigi, also I've had married for 13 years with the american ,We have a daughter 12 years old, she was worry about the prop 8,why because she believes in God's creation, the family on earth are between the man and the woman together with the children,how we will have the idea to destroy the most sacred gift the human being posses,changing the reality,agains the nature , doesn't matter what is your believe,religion,color or race,still if you have any sense of what is right and wrong, you will know the marriage is the foundation in our society between the man and the woman,and nothing is going to change it.
Whoever,it is not the right for the one ethnic group or specific religion is the responsability the any human being to fight,for the future generations, for the history of the world, because not even the power behind the power will change the reason to be on earth. Is many more thoughts about prop 8 but I think is so clear, why We need to supported the prop 8, I hope the everyone open the eyes carefully,if my daughter ,12 years old girl was in her school classroom reading her essay about why she wants the prop 8 will stop the most contradictory and destructive law agains the humans,marriage she told me is between woman and a man,she explains to every person ,also she said is nothing related to the religion matters is part of our nature,part of the family and always will be.

Anonymous said...

1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;


4 ¶ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
15 ¶ And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 ¶ And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
the asmoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.